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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born of water

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psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Logic,hi, I would in a heartbeat agree with you 100%. But i see the objections to the water baptism interpretation.
Maaby we can just respectfully disagree?
I dont know that it necessarily matters.


....David

 2007/10/18 16:02Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

IMHO, "and" is the most important word in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. Not "water" not "Spirit" not "flesh".


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2007/10/18 16:04Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

BeYeDoers wrote:
Blazed, let me ask you: must you speak in tongues to be saved?



To answer your question:

You must have the Holy Ghost to be saved-and when receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost one does speak with/in other tongues as the Spirit of God gives utterance.

*Speaking in other tongues is not a gift-it is the Holy Ghost himself who is the gift

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive [b]GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST[/b]

One must have the GIFT of the Holy Ghost (to be born of the Spirit John 3:5)) to be saved.

 2007/10/18 16:18Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

yes or no would be fine, thanks.


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2007/10/18 16:23Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Yes, a person must have the Holy Ghost in order to be saved. And as Jesus said, when anyone is born of the Spirit you will hear the "SOUND" thereof

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeh, AND THOU HEARST THE SOUND THEREOF, but canst not let whence it cometh,and whither it goeth: SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

And on the day of Pentecost: Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a SOUND FROM HEAVEN as of a rushing mighty wind, and it FILLED ALL THE HOUSE WHERE THEY WERE SITTING.3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire that sat upon EACH OF THEM.4 And they were ALL FILLED WITH HOLY GHOST, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 2007/10/18 16:31Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Thanks, and I believe this is the point where we delve into something more serious. Do you belong to a United Pentecostal or United Apostolic church? Earlier in the thread you said that the "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was Jesus. It is not. Jesus is the name of the man (incarnation) whom Mary gave birth to. NOWHERE in scripture is there anything remotely close to the Father or the Spirit being called "Jesus". Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all concurrently exist as one God but three distinctions. The Father was in heaven, Jesus was on earth, and the Holy Spirit descended on Him as the Father spoke. Oneness churches believe in the ancient heresy of Sabellianism, and have added baptism in water and tongues to their list of requirements for justification. God's word says repentance, and faith APART from any works.

The two predominant heresies regarding the nature Christ at the time of the early fathers and still today are: Sabellianism and Arianism. The early fathers clearly taught against both (Which makes sense considering neither are what Jesus or His Word teaches). I would suggest you do some studying on the doctrines of the Hypostatic Union and Communicatio Idiomatum.


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2007/10/18 16:51Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
BeYeDoers wrote:
how many verses are required to form a doctrine? is 3 the magic number? 5? 10?

How many times in scripture is "Word" defined as God? there are thousands of instances of "word". How many of those say that it means "God"?


Use the "word" acording to context of it given meaning.

Use "water" acording to context of its given meaning.
"Water" is never given the meaning as child birth.
Do you know how to use hermeneutics and/or exegesis?

 2007/10/18 16:56Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

water means water and we must hesitate to read symbolism into its meaning unless scripture is clearly pointing that way. Not that it isn't symbolic, but we can't start with that assumption and then interpret the verse. This is exegesis and a basic hermeneutic. So water is water. Now, where or from what is that water? Here are some possibilities:

1. baptism
2. rain
3. bathwater
4. rivers, lakes, etc.
5. natural birth and human bodily fluid

these are all (there may be more) literal "contexts" of the word water in scripture. So which one is used here, or is it a separate one not used somewhere else? I ask this in reference to my question earlier, "how many verses does it take to build a doctrine?" The answer is "one" as long as it is in line with the rest of God's revelation. Eg. there are 2 verses in the Bible that use "Word" as a proper name in reference to God and Jesus. That's it. 2. So must we read those verses to say "word just means what God says, not a name for the preIncarnate Jesus b/c every other use of the word means that which is written or spoken." This is what the Arians do to deny the deity of Christ. But we now that a word must be understood in light of its context, so Word is the name of the eternal Son b/c that is how John uses it.

So, just because water is used in baptism x number of times and symbolically for Spirit y number of times and rain z number of times, that doesn't mean those apply here.

Here is the way I read this passage (I am open to correction and discussion, though). Nicodemus did not understand the "AGAIN" part of Jesus' statement, so he thinks he has to re-enter his mother's womb. Jesus clarifies by giving a short discourse on Spiritual birth (the AGAIN part) contrasted with Nicodemus' original understanding of re-entering the womb. In this explanation, He says you must be born of water AND Spirit. He is drawing a contrast throughout His explanation so that Nicodemus wouldn't be confused. His use of "water" parallels born, womb, flesh. His use of "Spirit" parallels again, Spirit, and wind. I might be totally wrong, but it is a very straightforward interpretation, and in no way contradicts the rest of scripture. And, it is purely EXEGETICAL. Reading baptism into it is EISEGETICAL. Could it mean baptism? sure. But it seems awfully forced in this context.

I know you are going to ask where in scripture does water refer to natural birth and the human body, so:

John 19:34
1 John 5:6,8

Again, I'm not dogmatic about this interpretation, so let's discuss :-)
However, I am dogmatic about baptism being necessary in order to be saved b/c it adds to Christ's work on the cross, not to mention NOT TAUGHT in scripture. Yes, there are 3 verses that APPEAR to say that on the surface, but proper exegesis and hermeneutics prove otherwise. Baptism is our response to salvation, not a prerequisite of it.


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2007/10/18 21:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:
And, it is purely EXEGETICAL. Reading baptism into it is EISEGETICAL. Could it mean baptism? sure. But it seems awfully forced in this context.



Well spoken friend... spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus

- Jim

 2007/10/18 21:08
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
BeYeDoers wrote:
Here is the way I read this passage (I am open to correction and discussion, though). Nicodemus did not understand the "AGAIN" part of Jesus' statement, so he thinks he has to re-enter his mother's womb. Jesus clarifies by giving a short discourse on Spiritual birth (the AGAIN part) contrasted with Nicodemus' original understanding of re-entering the womb. In this explanation, He says you must be born of water AND Spirit. He is drawing a contrast throughout His explanation so that Nicodemus wouldn't be confused. His use of "water" parallels born, womb, flesh. His use of "Spirit" parallels again, Spirit, and wind. I might be totally wrong, but it is a very straightforward interpretation, and in no way contradicts the rest of scripture. And, it is purely EXEGETICAL. Reading baptism into it is EISEGETICAL. Could it mean baptism? sure. But it seems awfully forced in this context.


It goes like this:
[b]:3[/b] Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[b]:4[/b] How does one start his life over again. Can a man throw every thing he has known or learned away and start from scratch when he is old?

[b]:5[/b] unless one is buried by baptism into death in the likeness of baptism:(Rom 6:4) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[b]:6[/b] That which is done of the flesh is flesh by only starting over with ones own effort; and that which is done of the Spirit is spirit.

Nicodemus is not stupid, He wouldn't ask about literaly being born as a baby again, or going back into the womb as an adult. He isn't even being sarcastic.

Jesus is saying that he must loose his "religion" and take on a totaly new concept.

He is a Teacher of Israel, Nicodemus knows that Jesus is talking about starting over from scratch with what one has learned an knows.

Nicodemus knew that baptism of water means that when a man was baptised, he bocomes a proselyte to the Jewish religion; and, in this baptism, he promised in the most solemn manner to renounce idolatry, to take the God of Israel for his God, and to have his life conformed to the precepts of the Divine law.
Nicodemus also knew what John the baptizer was doing and what his baptism meant.
It means to renounce all he knew in his Judaism, to take the Jesus as the Messiah for his God, and to have his life conformed to what Jesus was teaching.

 2007/10/18 22:30Profile





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