SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born of water

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 Next Page )
PosterThread
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

Amen and Amen. Man, its not everyday that you hear people speaking and standing up for the truth. You must be Apostolic right as all of the saints should be, holding to the teachings of the apostles doctrine not man's visions, dreams, interpretation. The biblical foundation is found in the word.

I once came across a guy that thought the same thing that being born of the water was natural birth and that is obviously out of context because everyone has already had natural birth. Jesus was stating this fact was something that should happen in the future. Jesus didn't agree with Nicodemus about getting back into his mother womb but explained the born again experience which consists of the water and the spirit. The natural birth didn't consist of the water and the spirit. Being born of the water is not complete without the birth of the spirit for they both are a part of the new birth.

There is also people that say that being born of the water is the cleansing of the word or something related to the word and that is partly true but first cleansing and being born are two different things. When a believer is baptized in the name of Jesus he is obeying Jesus' commandment so in one way you can't exclude the obedience to the word from being born of the water but being born of water and the spirit are two things in your life that you can pin point and say it happened here. They are not a continious progression or transformation. The cleansing of the word and the perfecting of the saints through obedience of the word are life long. The New Birth is an event that may happen all at one time or in two intervals like the Samaritans who believed and were baptized and later on received the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands by the apostles.

So the truth is evident, it is clear. It is just that people are not willing to accept it or they are blinded by false teaching and fear of losing the praise of men.

What do you think about the topic concerning when the Holy Spirit comes to abide? Some say that the H.S comes right when you believe and they base this off of how Jesus breathed on the Apostles and said receive the H.S thus stating that the apostles already had the h.s but not the baptism of the h.s but these are used interchangeably for a reason in the book of Acts. By the way i don't see a difference between the reception of the h.s and the baptism of the h.s from the account on the Day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit came as Jesus promised on the Day of Pentecost, (it couldn't be before b/c jesus said that the Father wouldn't send the promise in till jesus was glorified and at that point when jesus breathed on the apostles he wasn't glorified yet but only resurrected)and Luke said that they received the h.s and spoke in other tongues as the spirit gave them the utterance. Also if the Apostles already had the h.s after Jesus breathed on them then Jesus physically would need to breathe on people today to fill them and in one way he does through the might rushing wind thats how they knew jesus had sent the holy spirit, it clicked with them (jesus breathed on them earlier as symbolic of the h.s and the mighty rushing wind from heaven came later to fill them) but the main point is when the holy spirit come to take up residence, how he does it is his businees whether through blowing, breathing, speaking, pouring, raining and etc.


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/17 17:38Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Blazed, Hi , I do disagree on 2 issues and your explanation does not change my mind.
The issue of nicodemus question of entering into his mothers womb.
Then Jesus says that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit.
Then unless a man is born of water and spirit.....
I cannot interpret those statement apart,they must go together.....hence the water spoken of is natural childbirth.
The other issue of Father,Son, And Holy Spirit all translate into the name of Jesus.......I cannot make that jump with you . I will just choose to dissagree.
I really feel this is a doctrinal issue and I would need to see the whole perspective of your teachers to see where this is going.

 2007/10/17 17:52Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

Lets look at the text.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3

Now, you say that Jesus is talking about the natural birth when he says to be born of water and you justify it by using the other text that says everyone that is born of the flesh is flesh. Jesus was not saying that being born of the water is natural birth he was explaining why we all need to be born again b/c EVERYONE THAT IS BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH. FLESH AND BLOOD WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Thanks for this conversation b/c i am literally receiving insight on this scripture. I never took it into thought how everyone who is born of the spirit is SPIRIT just as every one that is born of the flesh is FLESH. As I stated above before FLESH AND BLOOD WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Now Jesus would have to be stupid to have meant by saying except a man be born of the water and he meant by that according to your beliefs on this except a man be born into this world and is born of the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That doesnt make sense. Of course everyone that comes into this would comes through the flesh. Why would jesus say that when he knows that everyone that is born by a woman is born by the flesh. What is the use of Except like it is not going to happen. Everyone will be born of the water if being born of the water means being born by the flesh. You see that its not scriptural and it doesn't make sense. That usage of the scripture makes Jesus' words foolish and Jesus knows what he is talking about.

Concerning the other issue of the trinity the name of jesus it is really clear. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. He is God with us "Immanuel". Since Jesus is God and was God the word before he came to this earth he is also the FATHER (Ex: Everlasting Father). We all know without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, there need be no argument there. If Jesus was God and is God and God is a spirit and his spirit is called the holy spirit in reality Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Who's spirit did the 120 recieve on the day of pentecost? God's spirit and the spirit of his dear son. These are not two spirits b/c God and the son are one and the same person and so is the spirit in unity and oneness with the Godhead. This is in no way denying the Father or the Holy Spirit. We see and accept the Father and the Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ. All the fullness of the Godhead lives in Jesus Christ Bodily right? Do you see now? Only tradition and false teaching will prevent you or fear of changing your traditions. Hope you understand the truth and that God will give you understanding on this subject.

"For unto us a CHILD is born, unto us a SON is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called WONDERFUL, COUNSELLOR, THE MIGHTY GOD, The EVERLASTIN FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE.

Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Isa 9:6-7

Who is this? Doesn't this sound familiar? This must be God right? But it says unto us a child is born, a son is given. Wait God is not born, God has always been unless it is talking about Jesus Christ the only begotten son of God who was God manifested in the flesh.

Can I be any more clearer?


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/17 18:33Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
psalm1 wrote:
Blazed, Hi , I do disagree on 2 issues and your explanation does not change my mind.
The issue of nicodemus question of entering into his mothers womb.
Then Jesus says that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit.
Then unless a man is born of water and spirit.....
I cannot interpret those statement apart,they must go together.....hence the water spoken of is natural childbirth.
The other issue of Father,Son, And Holy Spirit all translate into the name of Jesus.......I cannot make that jump with you . I will just choose to dissagree.
I really feel this is a doctrinal issue and I would need to see the whole perspective of your teachers to see where this is going.

Please, in order to confirm your theory, show in scripture where water relates to natural child birth or any where in the bible has water being spoken of as natural child birth or anything close to it.

 2007/10/17 19:05Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Logic I am only looking at that one paassage and reconciling what i read.
To me [I could be wrong] If i apply your reasoning then we have 3 births 1] natural 2]through baptism [that wich is born of the flesh is flesh] 3]rebirth[born again]
You will notice no reference to baptism in the dialog with nicodemas.
This in my opinion is a conveinent place to insert water baptism which in no way is being referred to [this is strictly my opinion]
You and i are not the first to examine these two possibilities. Theologians differ on this matter.
I dont know if I 'proved my theory'...as you say...but i would say it is equally possible to cast doubt on the other view since it doesnt fit the dialog.
So since niether of us really knows for now i choose to say born of the womb=natural birth
Make sense?
......David

 2007/10/17 19:30Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

We must also look at Jesus' words to Nicodemas, and what Jesus was holding Nicodemas accountable for.

Jesus asks him-
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Now what "things" would Christ be speaking of? Where in OT was there a similar idea presented that Nicodemas should have known?

Perhaps here-
Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Here we see both water and spirit spoken of in regards to the new birth, or regeneration. This is the promise of the new covenant is it not?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/17 20:09Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2739
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Here we see both water and spirit spoken of in regards to the new birth, or regeneration. This is the promise of the new covenant is it not?



Yes, I think you are on the right track here with this reference to Ezekiel. I believe that Jesus' words in John 3:5 about being born of water and spirit have nothing to do with literal H2O. It's not about water or baptism. Salvation cannot be accomplished by a bath. The water He was speaking of was symbolic, it was from the Old Testament picture of purification. Nicodemus would have understood that reference. The Ezekiel 36 passage brings together the ideas of water and spirit, it is the OT promise of regeneration.

The Holy Spirit places the believer into the body of Christ and purifies the believer by the water of the word...

[i]that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,[/i]
(Eph 5:26)

[i]Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.[/i]
(Joh 15:3)

Paul refers to the "washing of regeneration" and "renewing by the Holy Spirit" in Titus 3:5, echoing Jesus' words in John 3:5. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he needed to be spiritually purified and spiritually reborn. The whole point in speaking to Nicodemus this way was to show him that law and rituals-including baptism-cannot give eternal life. Baptismal regeneration is unscriptural.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/10/17 21:12Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

roaringlamb,i dont see how nicodemas could possibly have connected those 3 scriptures to what Jesus was saying.
They were not dialogging on baptism. they were specifically discussing birth.
The weight is definately on the side of natural birth.
besides if the baptism theory is taken to its logical conclusion it appears to me we have 3 births.


.....David

 2007/10/17 21:14Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

InTheLight, In that case the born=baptism theory still doesnt fit because not only would nicodemas have to connect Jesus words to baptism [which I cant see happening] even more far fetched he would have to connect baptism with birth.
Its almost like a picture is being presented that any good jew would automatically connect the dots of this obvious baptism=born of water theory when even us being enlightened would not say "you need to be born of water" I have never heard of this
And yet you think nicodemas would have automatically thought this?
This just doesnt seem possiblle


...David

 2007/10/17 21:26Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
They were not dialogging on baptism.



Those verses in Ezekiel have nothing to do with baptism, but rather the cleansing effect of a regenerated heart.

If not these verses, then where in the OT would Christ be drawing from, and wondering what Nicodemas did not understand.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/17 21:55Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy