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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Jesus Christ, An Offence To ‘Westernized Christianity’

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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Theopenlife
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
I agree, with the addition that it is too often a "holiness gimmick"; people are motivated to live upright lives because "who knows when you might get 'caught up'", rather than because of the plain commands and worthiness of God, and the putridness of sin. I speak on my own testimony, and of my friends who were similarly carried by the doctrine of Pre-Trib rapture.



yes indeed. the motivation for doing what's right ought to be simply because it is what God requires and we delight in doing it. i heard Fred Price one time talking against predestination using the argument that if he did everything right and got to the front of the line and was told "sorry, no room for you up here" it would be a travesty...i was like "are you nuts? we ought not to be in this for what we can gain, we ought to be in this because we're called." too many times our motivation is something other than what God requires.

may God right our motives.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/10/15 23:15Profile
pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: Jesus Christ, An Offence To ‘Westernized Christianity’

Brothers and Sisters,
Back to the topic at hand.

Jesus Christ, An Offence To ‘Westernized Christianity’

I wonder if this could be the reason that Jesus Christ is An Offence To 'Westernized Christianity'?

because it is not Christianity at all.
Check it out, after you get mad, pray and seek our Lord Jesus Christ. His grace is sufficient and it is time we believe such.

http://www.yesumulungi.com/Commentary/Comment72.htm

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2007/10/16 21:15Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

I've read his interpretations. Now I'll see if he's right. (Though if he's right, living in Southern California doesn't suggest I'd see much for long, besides a white flash.)

 2007/10/16 22:27Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:


Hi pastorfrin…

I hesitated to return to this topic, but I would like to share my feelings in this. Please don’t think that I am “following you” around or disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. This is an interesting topic, and it merits a sincere discussion.

Quote:
Jesus Christ, An Offence To ‘Westernized Christianity’

I wonder if this could be the reason that Jesus Christ is An Offence To 'Westernized Christianity'?

because it is not Christianity at all.
Check it out, after you get mad, pray and seek our Lord Jesus Christ. His grace is sufficient and it is time we believe such.

http://www.yesumulungi.com/Commentary/Comment72.htm

I think it an error to assume that a belief in the pre-trib rapture (#3 on Brother Kato’s list of “ANOTHER GOSPEL and NOT BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY”) is an invention of “Westernized Christianity.” The notion was taught in ancient times. Ephraem the Syrian, a 4th Century Church leader, seems to have [url=http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/#notes]spoken of a pre-trib rapture[/url] when he said, “[i]For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins[/i].” I also know believers all over the world who believe in a pre-trib rapture. While the idea of a pre-trib rapture may very well be incorrect, I still don’t think that it is safe to boldly proclaim that the belief is a FALSE DOCTRINE. What’s more, it seems to convey that the belief is a matter of “fear mongering” believers into holy living (which seems to defeat the purpose of false doctrine). So I have to say that I disagree with his assertion in the article.

Moreover, your link points to Brother Kato’s website, which includes the following “prophecy:”
Quote:

[b]Rise of Persia-Iran is Judgment to Babylon-USA[/b]
Prophetic Warning and Commentary
By Kato Mivule
February 4th 2007

• Rise of Persia-Iran is for America's Judgment...
• America is jeering up for War with Iran...
• Yes, World War Three is at hand...
• America will be destroyed in this war...
• Iran will attack Israel in the Gog Magog War Ezekiel 38,39...
• America will be destroyed by Iran...
• Iran will be destroyed in this Battle...
• Gog and Magog will not win this Battle...
• The Lord God will defend Israel without America's Help...
• The Days of America are numbered...
• This Gog Magog war will involve Russia and China...
• This war will involve Nuclear weapons...
• This war will NOT be the end of the world...
• This war will be 'The Beginning of Sorrows'...
• The Rapture won't take place before or after this war...
• The Tribulation will begin after this war...
• The antichrist will arise out of this global chaos...
• The Rapture will take place after the Tribulation of those days...

[b]USA moving world towards World War III [/b]
Much of the news today is filled with the United States moving its war machinery to the Persian Gulf in its plan to engage Iran which it accuses of supporting rebel militias in Iraq.

However, the situation should warrant all serious Christians to watch and keep up with what is going on in the Middle East. The events in this region do not substantiate an expansion of the US Empire but otherwise its demise.

The US is moving the world towards a nuclear holocaust and a Gog Magog war that will claim millions of lives. However, it is imperative that Christians realise that this coming war will not be the end of the world but the ‘Begging of Sorrows’ as Jesus Christ spoke about it in Matthew 24.

[i]Matthew 24:6-8
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.[/i]

We are getting into a time that very severe alterations are coming as pertains to the current world lifestyles. The adjustments are going to be so severe that current world systems will fail and therefore need for new systems. It is in this light that the rebellious anti God and antichrist systems are going to be ushered in.

These are incredibly specific remarks. Unfortunately, these words cannot be judged upon the limits of time and history right now. We won’t know whether or not this man was a true “prophet” or a “false prophet” until years from now. As you might expect, I am a bit leery of many of these supposed prophecies. For instance, it would have to take a supernatural event of cataclysmic proportions for Iran to destroy America. Unless all the intelligence from all of the nations of the world is wrong, Iran simply does NOT have that sort of capabilities now.

In addition, I disagree with the author’s premise that America is the “world’s only empire.” He claims:
Quote:
” We are witnessing the demise of the world's only empire-USA
What we are witnessing is the transition from current world system to the New World Order. We are witnessing the demise of one world empire – The USA and the rise of another one world empire – One World Government – Antichrist System. Certainly the coming Middle East war will be a climax of the clash of the West and Islamic civilizations that has already begun.

Make no mistake about it, the Iran US war will usher in great sorrows. This coming war will not go as planned by the Americans but it will go as planned by The Lord God of Heaven and Earth. The implications here are great. It means that we are seeing Bible prophesy being fulfilled before our eyes…that is if you live through this coming Nuclear Holocaust in the Middle East.

No Turning Back from Doom's Day...
There is no turning back from this point onwards. I say this for two reasons. One is that Israel will NOT coexist with a nuclear-armed Iran that has made its intentions to ‘wipe Israel of the world map’.

Secondly, the US and pursuit for more Oil treasures as she continues her conquest of more middle east territories and expand her empire. The USA's foreign policy is driven by greed for more oil and this is what is causing all the wars around the world currently. Iran has large oil deposits and the USA out of greed seeks to control them. Did the Bible not say that the root of ALL Evil is love for money? America's Capitalistic egos are leading her to death! Her salivating for the control of Oil deposits in the Middle East is surely what is going to kill her. “

This sort of [i]conspiracy theory[/i] (I hate to call it what it is) claims that the United States “continues her conquest of middle east territories to expand her empire” in the pursuit of oil and empire. In my opinion, this is fundamentally [u]flawed[/u] and an inaccurate depiction of current events. Is this a real “prophecy” -- or is this merely the strong beliefs of the author? If it is a real prophecy, then the “spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets” (I Corinthians 14:32) and no one would resist such a judgment of whether or not it is correct (I Corinthians 14:29). If it is NOT a real “prophecy,” then I wouldn’t be receptive to him in the future.

The topic of New Testament prophecy and Bible prophecy is a touchy subject. There are so many persuasions about the meaning of such Scripture. Jesus never told us that we would understand the exact time-table of His coming. In fact, not even the Son of God knows this timing (Matthew 24:36 -- which would be peculiar, in the case of a 3 ½ or 7 year tribulation and SUBSEQUENT rapture). However, the situation should warrant all serious Christians to watch and pray. I feel that we should keep our eyes on Christ WHILE and DESPITE what is going on in the Middle East. We should remember that “[i]To live is Christ and to die is gain[/i]” (Philippians 1:21). If the End is delayed, then praise the Lord for more time to seek Him in our Earthly dwelling while introducing Christ to others. If the End comes, then even better!
Quote:
I wonder if this could be the reason that Jesus Christ is An Offence To 'Westernized Christianity'?

because it is not Christianity at all.
Check it out, after you get mad, pray and seek our Lord Jesus Christ. His grace is sufficient and it is time we believe such.

I understand the plague of false conversions and doctrines that plagues the Church today. It is almost as bad today as it was when the Romans tried to control and dilute every aspect of the Christian faith. However, I still think that a belief in a pre-trib rapture (and even tithing) can merit inclusion into “Christianity.” In fact, there are many post-trib believers who once believed in pre-trib. I imagine that they feel that they were still a part of “Christianity,” even if they weren’t of the same persuasion as they are today. I believe that there will be people in Eternity who will surprised by the events that got them there (expecting either pre or post, and the opposite occurred). I think that there will also be some cheerful tithe givers in Heaven too. There might even be a few Christian voters and members of the military who make it!

;-)

I certainly won’t get mad; but I will still pray and seek our Lord Jesus Christ. His grace is certainly sufficient!

:-)


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Christopher

 2007/10/17 0:48Profile
pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Chris,

Hey Brother, I believe you are absolutely right, there is no way Iran could destroy Babylon in the natural. One question though, is it actually Iran who destroys Babylon
or is it the Lord?
I do believe it is the Lord and with Him, ‘ALL’ things are possible.
Might want to watch, just in case, maybe even get our house in order, like maybe get our eyes off the things of this world and on the Lord Jesus Christ; or we could dismiss it all and go on our merry ways.
Luke 12:19-21
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. [20] But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? [21] So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Maybe this is actually the issue at hand, you know Babylon and all.

:-)

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2007/10/17 5:09Profile
BenK
Member



Joined: 2006/12/17
Posts: 49
Harrisburg PA

 Re: Jesus Christ, An Offence To ‘Westernized Christianity’

What is the "Bible colleges and intellectualism of christianity" doctrine?


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Benjamin Kreps

 2007/10/17 6:49Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Chris, just thought I'd throw this in for balance...

The very same Ephraem also wrote the opposite:

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373): "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo Asceticus, I)."

As well, Pseudo-Ephraem (believed 4th century) wrote: "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [Antichrist]..." (On the Last Times, the Antichrist etc., 2).

It is believed that either he oscillated because of earlier confusion, or his previous statement must be interpreted in light of his other statements. Perhaps he thought that the church would be unified from its schisms before the Antichrist come?

Either way, the age of an heresy makes it the more wrinkled, but no less heresy. Call Pre-Trib a "classic", but I believe the scriptures are emphatic enough. Have you read Eli Brayleys posts about the subject? They helped inform me, and they are at his timothyministries blog.

 2007/10/17 13:55Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi theopenlife...

Quote:
It is believed that either he oscillated because of earlier confusion, or his previous statement must be interpreted in light of his other statements. Perhaps he thought that the church would be unified from its schisms before the Antichrist come?

It is believed...by whom? It is difficult to even know WHAT Ephraem the Syrian believed, since most of us do not have access to his translated works. Instead, we rely on a few quotes that were taken to either reinforce our own beliefs or counter the beliefs of others. Regardless of what he believed, it is evident that there was at least a 4th Century belief in a pre-trib "catching away." This contradicts the claims that the idea is entirely a modern belief.

What harm is there in a persuasion toward a pre-trib rapture if there is an acute awareness that it is merely a possibility? Are we so bold as to label it a "false doctrine?" It is my belief that neither "pre-trib" OR "post-trib" should even be a DOCTRINE. They are merely possibilities concerning the End Times. I feel that all believers should at least be AWARE of the various beliefs -- without the fingers pointed by would-be "experts" or "prophets" of an opposing belief willing to publicly call an alternate theory a "LIE."

Thus, I am [u]neither[/u] pre-trib or post-trib. I feel that I am very well read on the issue (including both pre-trib and post-trib thoughts). I just don't know with enough certainty to stake a final conclusion. I suspect that our brother Kato (or anyone else) does not know with enough complete certainty to stake such a claim either. I certainly don't feel that there is enough evidence to turn either belief into a mandatory "doctrine" of the Church. So what if a person is not completely convinced one way or the other? The important thing is that a believer maintains an intimate relationship with Christ. They should be willing to serve Him through the persecutions of this world, and if need be, the wrath of God upon this world.

What does that mean for Kato's "prophecy" as voiced on his webpage (using the link provided by Brother pastorfrin)? He claims that Iran will be the vessel used to destroy "heathen" America. Some of the same "prophets" (not referring to Brother Kato) were pointing the same prophetic finger at Iraq (instead of Iran) both five and 17 years ago (just before both Iraq wars). With all of America's vices, I have never believed that it is the most sinful nation on the Earth. There are many wonderful believers in this nation. No one could honestly deny the influence of Protestant Christianity upon our nation. When compared to pagan nations like China, Japan, India, Muslim nations and Communist nations -- America is a land (for better or for worse) of liberty. A couple of years ago, would-be prophets were declaring that Hurricane Katrina was a judgment of God upon sinful New Orleans. It could have been. But I would wonder why God chose to judge New Orleans over San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles, Los Vegas, Amsterdam, Pyongyang, Paris, Beijing, Tokyo, New Delhi, Khartoum, or Tehran? I suppose that there is a great deal of hypocrisy in America, because we have inherited the truth yet some have preferred lasciviousness. However, our sinfulness is not nearly as publicly accepted as what is found in many other western or pagan countries. Gross immorality is "normal" and completely legal in some cities. Christianity is still persecuted and largely prohibited around the globe! And God chose to pour out "judgment" upon New Orleans -- sadly resulting in the death of the poor residents instead of the sinful or immoral? It just didn't make sense then, and I'm not quite so sure that it makes sense now.

I understand the analogy of America and Babylon as recorded in Revelation 17. It does [u]seem[/u] to be indicative of America (at least in the context of our time). However, this is not completely certain. In the past, some have pointed to specific cities (like New York or Rome). It has been used to refer to Empires (like Rome, Britain or the Roman Catholic Church). I have even read writings that articulated a belief that the Babylon was indicative of the Arab world. The point is that we cannot be conclusively certain about the meaning of this passage. We can only be persuaded as to its possible meaning.

Yet the "prophets" continue to "prophesy." I suppose that there is a danger of becoming like one of the townspeople in Aesop's [i]The Boy Who Cried Wolf[/i]. For every false prophesy or loud proclamation that never comes to pass, some people might become less receptive to the voice of a true prophet. I suppose the safe thing is, as pastorfrin says, consider the information. We shouldn't have to "get our house in order" because of the fear of the future. Our house should ALWAYS be in order. We should always be prepared for the End and "[i]Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your LORD doth come[/i]" (Matthew 24:42). The key, I suppose, is to WATCH, PRAY and BE READY.

As far as the prophecy uttered by Brother Kato, I really don't know what to think. I disagree with some of his assertions about the motives of the United States regarding operations in Iraq. His subtle implications between these "words of warning" do strike me of yet another [i]conspiracy theory[/i]. But I will not worry. Who cares WHEN and HOW the end will come? We just need to know that it is coming. I will continue to make seeking and fellowshipping with Christ my number one objective for life. As we watch with longing and homesick anticipation for our groom, why should we fear about what happens between now and his arrival?

:-)


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Christopher

 2007/10/17 15:06Profile
pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

pastorfrin wrote:

Quote:
Maybe this is actually the issue at hand, you know Babylon and all.



The issue I was pointing to is this; Babylon, if the US is Babylon, then it would make perfect sense that Jesus Christ is and will continue to be, An Offence to ‘Westernized Christianity’.

Many ‘Christians’ in the US have this attitude:

Luke 12:19-21
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. [20] But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? [21] So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Thus the statement: “Might want to watch, just in case, maybe even get our house in order, like maybe get our eyes off the things of this world and on the Lord Jesus Christ; or we could dismiss it all and go on our merry ways.”

The sad and very real fact is that many will ignore the signs Jesus told us to watch for, and go on their merry ways, all the way to perdition.

Yes our house should always be in order, is yours?
Yes we should always be watching and ready, are you?

Some are not, and that is why we are to sound the trumpet.

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2007/10/17 18:52Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

BRO Chris
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.


Quote:
What harm is there in a persuasion toward a pre-trib rapture if there is an acute awareness that it is merely a possibility? Are we so bold as to label it a "false doctrine?" It is my belief that neither "pre-trib" OR "post-trib" should even be a DOCTRINE. They are merely possibilities concerning the End Times. I feel that all believers should at least be AWARE of the various beliefs -- without the fingers pointed by would-be "experts" or "prophets" of an opposing belief willing to publicly call an alternate theory a "LIE."



the problem with thinking that the rapture is pre-trib as a possibility is that if one leans that way and is wrong, one could be in for some serious hurdles to get over. Bless God though that His Grace is sufficient for those He has called to Himself.AMEN. to the last point i say, if those who are calling alternate theories lies are wrong, then they are wrong, however if they are right, then indeed God has spoken and so by default anything aside from what God has spoken is a lie, end of story. God will Himself prove His word to be Truth and by so doing, those He sent with it will be vindicated.

Quote:
Thus, I am neither pre-trib or post-trib. I feel that I am very well read on the issue (including both pre-trib and post-trib thoughts). I just don't know with enough certainty to stake a final conclusion. I suspect that our brother Kato (or anyone else) does not know with enough complete certainty to stake such a claim either. I certainly don't feel that there is enough evidence to turn either belief into a mandatory "doctrine" of the Church. So what if a person is not completely convinced one way or the other? The important thing is that a believer maintains an intimate relationship with Christ. They should be willing to serve Him through the persecutions of this world, and if need be, the wrath of God upon this world.



if you are like you said at the end of this portion of your post prepared to serve Him no matter what, then it's all good. At the end of the day for the true believer, God's Grace is sufficient for us to endure whatever must be endured, however the persecution will shake of the fakers. The True Saints will have Christ shining through them. i am convinced the rapture is post trib and as such believe any alternative to be lie which lulls the saints into a false sense of security and unpreparedness for the trial by fire which will come our way. a lot of people in dissilousionment will jump ship because such is not what they signed up for. to me the word is plain on this. if i have misread it, then our Lord will surely make it plain and set me straight. my concern isn't so much that people believe as i do, but rather that we as saints be prepared to follow our Lord no matter what be it tribulation or not because that's really the bottom line.

Quote:
What does that mean for Kato's "prophecy" as voiced on his webpage (using the link provided by Brother pastorfrin)? He claims that Iran will be the vessel used to destroy "heathen" America. Some of the same "prophets" (not referring to Brother Kato) were pointing the same prophetic finger at Iraq (instead of Iran) both five and 17 years ago (just before both Iraq wars).



well i believe that we don't need any nation from outside to destroy us, we've set that up ourselves through poor policies, fiscally, corruption and so on but it wouldn't be beyond believe that God would raise up a nation such as Iran to that end. People have said this war has been about oil, one of the arguments i heard, and it makes sense to me, perhaps bro Chris you can shed some light on this since you're doing a Ph.D on this sort of thing, is that the idea in going into Iraq for oil isn't for dropping prices of gas right now, but rather to secure a source for the long run as China expands and sucks up more oil. Eventually there won't be enough to supply our need and theirs and this could precipitate a conflict. i don't think that would be a good thing but what do you think of that argument. by the way i'm not really concerned about all this from any other perspective outside of what is God doing here?

Quote:
With all of America's vices, I have never believed that it is the most sinful nation on the Earth. There are many wonderful believers in this nation.



that's a good point bro Chris, but we could argue the same for Israel, yet Babylon, Assyria, Greece and Rome overran her...The Babylonians and Assyrians were wicked people and yet those very heathen nations are the ones which God used as the rod of chatizement... but i think the fact that we are a nation with the majprity of us being believers, makes it really bad...Israel was probably not as wicked/corrupt as Babylon, Assyria or Rome but the fact that she knew God and didn't do the right thing is what hacked God off to the point of destroying her.in fact we can say we know for sure Israel wasn't as wicked as those nations because they were heathens. Fast forward to us at this time, it's not about America being "not as bad as others like China" but that in America we know God but don't act like it, that makes God angry because it gives the heathen occasion to blaspheme His Name and God doesn't like that

i am reminded of this parable which Jesus spoke in Luke 12:

[b]37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut F33 him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.[/b]


...but like with Israel, that there were believers among them just as there are in America today, God will not utterly destroy us but put us in a place where those He has called to Himself will indeed cleave to Him like never before. for those nations which have not liberty as we do here, Christians there tend to hold more tightly to God because there is nothing else. We have liberty but in some respects we lack the fervor of those who don't have it. We have been given much and i feel much more is required of us than what we have done/are doing.

Quote:
With all of America's vices, I have never believed that it is the most sinful nation on the Earth. There are many wonderful believers in this nation. No one could honestly deny the influence of Protestant Christianity upon our nation. When compared to pagan nations like China, Japan, India, Muslim nations and Communist nations -- America is a land (for better or for worse) of liberty.



i see how you could conclude as you did bro, but again it's not about comparison to other nations, but rather to God's Standard because we know what is expected of us. We know what is right and yet we do it not so we shall be spanked with many stripes. there are many believers here but we have failed to affect the nation by being salt and light. the darkness can't overcome the light unless the light goes out...the pagan nations are expected to be wicked, but that nation which calls the Lord it's God ought to know better...that's the beef God has.



Quote:
A couple of years ago, would-be prophets were declaring that Hurricane Katrina was a judgment of God upon sinful New Orleans. It could have been. But I would wonder why God chose to judge New Orleans over San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles, Los Vegas, Amsterdam, Pyongyang, Paris, Beijing, Tokyo, New Delhi, Khartoum, or Tehran?



why wouldn't God hammer N.O? in S.F. the crowd there is for the most part pretty wayward...it's legendary so that is expected and who is to say that God will not yet pour out Judgment on S.F. or the other cities you mentioned? at the end of the day, He strikes down on His own schedule which may not have a pattern which we can discern but all the same, it's on His time. Tehran doesn't know the gospel (she will be judged too) but D.C. does...if God does like He did with Israel by using the heathen as His rod, what will we say then?if the enemy is behind it, was God unaware? we know the answer to that so the next one is why didn't God do anything? the thing i feel we don't understand is God's Role as Judge, that's why we can't swallow Rita and Katrina as Judgment from Him. if they weren't, we can continue on as before, but if they were, then we need to repent. it's easy to say that it's not God, we can chill after that like nothing happened, but to consider that it is Him requires repentance and that's work and we're not so open to that...we tend to write many things off as not being of God, perhaps we could consider a bit more often that they may well be, especially if the end result is genuine repentance because that can only be achieved by God manifesting Himself in a way which prompts us to do so.



Quote:
Gross immorality is "normal" and completely legal in some cities. Christianity is still persecuted and largely prohibited around the globe! And God chose to pour out "judgment" upon New Orleans -- sadly resulting in the death of the poor residents instead of the sinful or immoral? It just didn't make sense then, and I'm not quite so sure that it makes sense now.



bro i hope you understand that God boggles our minds...for example, why would God use Abraham rather than an able bodied man to bring in the line which would lead to Jesus?Why would allow Him to die on the cross? i would say if God spared not His Son, He will not take kindly to those of us who know of the Gravity of that Sacrifice and esteem it lightly...

i think as His creatures we have this concept of what we would do if we were Him and this sometimes blurrs our vision of what He is doing. why did He hit N.O. and spare other cities? why does it matter, who are we? our Job is to repent and to be circumspect in our walks with Him...when you're maker of all, you get to do whatever you want and i believe it's His Divine prerogative to bless as He will and smite as He will also. my question isn't why anymore, my concern is what would you have me do?The other cities will get theirs in time...but that's not our concern, ours is what would God have us to do.

so i guess it may not make sense to you but to me it does, it's God's prerogative, He does as He pleases and once He has acted, that's it.

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I understand the analogy of America and Babylon as recorded in Revelation 17. It does seem to be indicative of America (at least in the context of our time). However, this is not completely certain. In the past, some have pointed to specific cities (like New York or Rome). It has been used to refer to Empires (like Rome, Britain or the Roman Catholic Church). I have even read writings that articulated a belief that the Babylon was indicative of the Arab world. The point is that we cannot be conclusively certain about the meaning of this passage. We can only be persuaded as to its possible meaning.



i believe that Babylon's meaning is dual, that is symbolic of everything which is in opposition to God's own City, Jerusalem, and secondly the place which serves as the headquarters for such wickedness. America has indeed exported a lot of filth into the world but i think we have yet to see the sort of centralization of wickedness which says "i am Babylon" it could be that the ancient city of Babylon may be rebuilt or it could be Rome but when Babylon presents herself, all speculation will stop...we aint's seen her just yet.



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Yet the "prophets" continue to "prophesy." I suppose that there is a danger of becoming like one of the townspeople in Aesop's The Boy Who Cried Wolf. For every false prophesy or loud proclamation that never comes to pass, some people might become less receptive to the voice of a true prophet. I suppose the safe thing is, as pastorfrin says, consider the information. We shouldn't have to "get our house in order" because of the fear of the future. Our house should ALWAYS be in order. We should always be prepared for the End and "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your LORD doth come" (Matthew 24:42). The key, I suppose, is to WATCH, PRAY and BE READY.



bro Chris, what you said at the end sums it up. that was well worded bro, our house always should be in order...


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As far as the prophecy uttered by Brother Kato, I really don't know what to think. I disagree with some of his assertions about the motives of the United States regarding operations in Iraq. His subtle implications between these "words of warning" do strike me of yet another conspiracy theory. But I will not worry. Who cares WHEN and HOW the end will come? We just need to know that it is coming. I will continue to make seeking and fellowshipping with Christ my number one objective for life. As we watch with longing and homesick anticipation for our groom, why should we fear about what happens between now and his arrival?



as far as conspiracy theories go, i always say, it aint a good conspiracy if people can figure it out...the less plausible that it's a conspiracy, the better, then the people will be easily led astray unsuspectingly. if i were the government and wanted to do something i suspected the people wouldn't agree with, i'd present it a such a manner as to dupe everyone...that is lie about it. no government wants the people to know all their business or why they do what they do, that could lead to chaos. i'm not insinuating that this is what happened with Iraq, but saying that if this is what happened, i wouldn't be surprised. really it doesn't matter what machinations went on behind the scenes, whether you think this war is about freedom and virtue or lies and oil, God's Plan marches on and the real deal is, how does this fit into what God is going and what should our response be?

our Lord is drawing nigh so let us be prepared and not be found napping or abusing His servants.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/10/17 21:23Profile





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