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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Also, about two pages ago in this thread, Osama bin Laden predicted that the U.S. was going to invade Iraq back in 1997 or 1998. How did he know?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/7 13:05Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


Brother Jeff,

Within the Muslim world there are radicals and moderates. Many of the Muslim countries are governed by moderates and are threatened by the radical Muslim terrorists who want to get control of these countries. There are many people in Saudi Arabia who support terrorism and also want to get control of Saudi Arabia. The king of Saudi Arabia is threatened by Al Queda and probably a majority of the people of Saudi Arabia are a threat to him.

Anwar Sadat was murdered by the terrorists in Egypt. The king of Jordan is threatened by Al Queda. Any country that has any peaceful attitude towards the West is endangered by the radical Muslims.

These kings are not Christians but they aren't trying to kill us like the radicals. Their motives may be selfish and not of God, but they are not threatening people in other countries. It is one thing having a neighbor that isn't friendly towards you, as compared to a neighbor that would burn your house down if the opportunity arrose.

We have been forced into war by these radical terrorists who want to take over the whole world and force every one to be Muslim.

Jeff, you brought up a propaganda machine that is rooted in humanism. When I think of propaganda I remember back to the Viet Nam era when the secular press in the U.S. used propaganda to get our country out of Viet Nam. Many youths, including myself, soaked it up to the point we cut and ran and left that country fall. If you look at humanism as a life that lives for today and life is only about being happy today, where was the humanism in staying in Viet Nam. There was a little oil, a little rubber, and a potential tourist land was there but that was about it. The propaganda that was humanism was to get out so we can preserve our life. The secular press that was not willing to die because they loved this world gave us a bunch of propaganda to save their face.

The Sadducees were rich and didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead. Life was about being happy now. The Epicureans on Mars hill were the same way. It's all a philosophy and doctrine about living now and being happy now. So, obviously if I'm sold on that propaganda, I'm not going to be found in Viet Nam or Iraq. I might lose this life.

In Christ,
GaryE


_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/7 14:16Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Gary,

Will democracy prevent or enable the Islamic fanatics drive to install Sharia law in Iraq?

In terms of Vietnam, the issue was to prevent Communism's spread.

We lost, but as you have truly pointed out that where the people believe in something they will give their life for it. Osama bin Laden, trained and provisioned by the U.S. destroyed the Soviet Union. That country went bankrupt.

The real question is what is God doing in all of this? It it a time where He is hardening the heart of Pharoah to bring down a curse on the nation so that they might cry out to Him? Or is it a time of blessing for this nation?

What is the fruit?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/7 15:50Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
There is nothing being rewritten, these are current events. This is a deception to think things are being changed.



Goodness, how can you say that. I just posted quotes from these people saying they were for dissarming Iraq, who voted for the action..and are now making it a partisan issue!

To be fair to the Democrats...I don't believe they really ever were for the war. They voted for it because they wanted to ride the political wave of zealous patriotism that was sweeping post 9/11 America at the time.

And now, that the war is losing popularity, they are changing their position on it. My frustration about blaming Bush does not mean that I am either conservative or liberal per se…just that I don’t think the goal of leaving Iraq justifies spreading false witness and out-right lies about the President.

I think this country (edit:extreme partisanship) is destroying the only way out of Iraq…we need bi-partisan ownership of repsonsibility for the war and the subsequent reconstruction.

If the Democrats really believe the war was a mistake then they should begin with an admissions to their own role in this mistake. It would be much more compelling for the American forgiving voter and might have the effect of leaving Bush and the Republicans in the moral rear position. Yet because the Dems will own up to nothing, choosing instead to portray the President as a cowboy, they are missing an opportunity for moral leadership.

Even though the Democrats cause has merit, they seem to be positioning failure in Iraq as their ticket to the Whitehouse, and in doing so have made the political stakes so high that neither side will back down untill it becomes a catstrophic threat. They began bi-partisan, but they have retreated...and they want the country to follow. Yet, that wouldn't be so bad if they would be truthful about their own contribution to the situation. Instead the left are demonizing Bush, and our foolishly leaving him no path for an honorable exit. Such naked appeasement of popular sentiment is not only cowardly, it is potentially volatile.

This is my frustration with some, (not all) of your comments Rookie. On one had you are wisely cultivating emphathy with our “enemies”, trying to understand their possible motivations and identifying with their humanity. I believe this is a good descipline in times of war. (It was a key to our good fortunes during the Cuban Missile crisis.) Yet you seem to show no emphathy for the President…believing the most outrageous bloggosphere allegations. Not only is this approach unprincipled…it has a strategic flaw. In fear and anger, the only door we leave Bush is for him to confess that he is a war criminal and an international pirate. In other words, we have made it nearly impossible for him to modify his position on Iraq!…his own honor and more importantly the honor of the country has been greedily challenged…by the very weasels who voted for the war in the first place.

I don’t believe we as Christians should be putting too much stock in all of these Pat Buchanon, Michael Moore fearmongering conspiracy theories, nor to Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson white-man burden braggadocio and bombast. Instead I think we should always try to maintain cautious emphathy with our leaders, even with those we disagree with, just as you are doing with our foriegn and military enemies. Spreading unprovable notions or cynical intepretations of these events does not increase our understanding...only our passion.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/12/7 18:07Profile









 Gary E

I don't understand what you wrote in your post....

Quote:
When I think of propaganda I remember back to the Viet Nam era when the secular press in the U.S. used propaganda to get our country out of Viet Nam.




what do you mean?

what does this

Quote:
If you look at humanism as a life that lives for today and life is only about being happy today, where was the humanism in staying in Viet Nam.



mean?

Are you saying that Vietnam was a just war, as is the war in Iraq?..... and that it's the "humanists" and their secular agenda that bring out defeat?

I'm confused as to what you are saying.

 2005/12/7 18:31
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re: Gary E

Brother Neil,

I was little when the Viet Nam era started. For some reason a conversation has stuck in my mind I heard when I was around some adults. In the conversation they were speaking about the moral reason to go to Viet Nam and protect those people from being taken over by communists. While there were probably people who thought to profit by war, there were many people who got involved with that war for a moral reason.

As the years went by the secular press chose to report more and more about the difficulties of war. Maybe their reporting on bad news is what sells and conflict brings them money. Eventually, the reporting made heroes out of anyone that would be a traitor. Yes, I look at the secular press of sponsoring propaganda against the war in Viet Nam for their own benefit whether that is to sell news or to protect their own self-righteous face.

Jeff sometimes looks at the motive for war as being from people who gain to profit financially from war. The Civil War could be an example. Most people are taught that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery. In a sense this is true, but the fact is it was the moral issue of slavery that went on before the war wouldn't go away until the war was fought. Other motives in the Civil War were not about the morality of slavery at all. Some people stood to get or hold onto great wealth. Their propaganda was so they could get or keep that wealth and be happy in this life. Like the Sadducees that did not believe in the resurrection of the dead they needed that happiness now.

With Viet Nam it doesn't look like there was a lot of wealth to gain. There was some oil there and some rubber but not that much to fight a war over if your object was wealth. If you are a humanist in that situation your propaganda would be to get out. Humanism doesn't lose its life in this world, it holds on to it. Yes, I am implying that humanism is what got us out of Viet Nam.

In Christ,
GaryE



_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/7 20:36Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

I wrote:

Quote:
There is nothing being rewritten, these are current events. This is a deception to think things are being changed.



I guess I did not say clearly what I meant to say. What I mean to say is this. Yes, many in our government voted for a war based on removing Sadam Hussein from power and also to remove a perceived threat of WMDs. This was the reasons given for going to war. Now these events are currently evolving are they not?

For those who voted for the war are not those objectives accomplished? Is not Sadam Hussein disposed? Is not the threat of WMDs proven to be no threat?

What I see that has changed is the mission. The Americans were brought to war based on fear. The objects of that fear have been dealt with. But what really is the objective now? How does fighting terrorism align with what is going on now?

Will democracy solve the reason for terrorism?

Has democracy solved what is wrong in this country? We have lived in an age where 40,000,000 children have been sent through the fire, just like the OT talks about. We have lived in an age where the culture of media disseminates hedonism throughout the world. We are the democracy which promotes globalism through our economic policies.

We hope that our brand of democracy will dilute the religious beliefs of extreme Islam? How has this same democracy diluted our own Christianity?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/8 10:47Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Mike wrote:

Quote:
Yet you seem to show no emphathy for the President…believing the most outrageous bloggosphere allegations.



I have nothing in common with those who are dead and without God. The President has chosen to surround himself with non-believers. According to Scripture it is not possible to have empathy for non believers, only enmity. Genesis 3:15

15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

How can a generation change by enforcing the law of Moses? Forcing Democracy on nations who view this form of govenment as evil will not work. This is a lost cause. There is no hope. Only by the law of the Spirit in Christ is their hope.

The kings and the princes of this world will never be able to escape the hold of Satan their father. From the very beginning, there are only those who will escape that hold and those who choose to remain.

What do you see in this world that gives you hope?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/8 12:21Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

continuing in the book

page 29

"The boomers arrived on campus in the fall of 1964. They were the first American generation with the freedom and the means to choose how they wanted to live their lives. In the 1930s, college had been a privilege only a few could afford. Family decisions were imposed by family hardships. If the breadwinner lost his job, sons and daughters could forget about college; they had to quit school and find work. Tens of millions still lived in small towns in rural America, where the Depression had hit the farms long before the 1929 Crash that hit Wall Street. After Pearl Harbor, the war and the war economy made the career decisions for America's young. The Silent Generation of the fifties grew up with parents, teachers, and clergy still as authority figures. Not until 1957 did Professor Galbraith discover that we were all living in The Affluent Society.

But the parents who had gone through the Depression and the war were determined that "my kid's not going to have it as rough as I did." so the baby boomers were raised differently, spending almost as many hours in front of a television as in school. By the mid-1950s, parent had a serious rival for their children's attention, and youngsters had an entertaining and witty ally, and a privileged sanctuary to retreat to, in the age-old struggle against parents. [b]The message that came from TV, especially the ads, was instant gratification.[/b]

By 1964, the year of Mario Savio and the Free Speech movement at Berkeley, when the first wave of boomers hit the campuses, never having kown hardship or war, it was ready to rock. And though the student riots and rebellions were blamed on LBJ, Nixon, Agnew, and Vietnam, this will not do. For student rebellions were not confined to America. They broke out across Europe and even in Japan. As the 1968 Days of Rage tore apart the Democratic party in the streets of Chicago, Czech students who made the Prague Spring were facing Russian tanks, Mexican students were being shot down in the streets of the capital, and French students almost seized Paris from President de Gaulle.

What baby boomers had in common with contemporaries abroad was not Vietnam, but their numbers, affluence, security, and freedom, and the televised example of their peers all over the world. In childhood, they had all had the same baby-sitter, TV---a baby-sitter more entertaining than the parents. Its incessant ad message was the same. "Kids! You need this ---now!"

(end of thought)


Remember back in the beginning of this thread how Madison avenue was able to glean the techniques of the mind scientists that came out of Nazi Germany at the end of WW 2.

How has our Christiany been diluted by the Secular powers of this world?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/8 12:44Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Further discussion

Quote:
Yes, many in our government voted for a war based on removing Sadam Hussein from power and also to remove a perceived threat of WMDs...



This was really the point I didn't want to lose sight of. Regardless of the merits of democracy or the war, we cannot allow the Democrats to "blame" Bush. (edit:and not themselves as well.) The President may have done the wrong thing (another discussion) but at least he is standing consistent...the left in this country has really been a disappointment with their political transformation. How immoral and irresponsible they are...voting to take our nation to war and then acting appalled at the humanity of it all. Some of these weasels surely remembered the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, so claiming that Bush "lied" to them is pitiful. These men and women were involved in the various security councils and were equally responsible for the intelligence reporting WMD's. And last but not least, let's not forget the state department whose mid-east policies are bedrock regardless of the various administrations.

Quote:
...For those who voted for the war are not those objectives accomplished? Is not Sadam Hussein disposed? Is not the threat of WMDs proven to be no threat? The Americans were brought to war based on fear. The objects of that fear have been dealt with. But what really is the objective now?



Certainly the specter and question of Saddam endangering America is past but there remains the issue of stability.If we leave, and thousands or tens of thousands of people die at the hand of some Iranian supported radical...well their blood is equally on the hands of our government at this point.

One thing is becoming certain; that there is no certainty in Iraq. The thing is a bloody mess, at least that’s the news we are recieiving. Sometimes I think I hear shades of Lyndon B. Johnson when I hear Bush talking about how well the training, and liberation in Iraq is going. (Maybe it's the Texas accent.) And has anyone noticed the eerie resemblance between Rumsfeld and McNamara? Still we don’t have 500,000 men there yet, and unlike Vietnam, the majority of Iraqi citizens wanted Saddam out.

Speaking of McNamara and Vietnam, this situation reminds of a quote of his from the recent documentary “Fog of War.” He was reluctant to discuss Vietnam any further so the interviewer quipped at him,” It sounds like you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t”. McNamara, avoiding controversy, replied “That’s right, and I’d rather be damned if I don’t!”

That’s how I feel about this world brother. (edit: it feels there are no right choices left.) If only the Church could be made up of nationless Christians who didn’t have to worry about damnable issues like national security and natural resources. Francis of Assisi was correct when he said something to the effect,“The only way to eliminate war is to eliminate property.” His comment was profound even as it was useless. Perhaps one day the thoroughbred Christian will have to claim true alien status on this planet, expecting no priviledge nor protection from any nation or society. (I have to admit that won’t be me...I wouldn't know how.)

I don’t know who said it but there is a saying that speaks of a brighter day coming. “The darkest hour has only 60 minutes.”

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/12/8 18:11Profile





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