| Re: Is speaking in tongues...|
here is my answer to your previous question about the Inner Light. I hope that will answer it for you.
Well, it doesn't in any way address the things Jesus said, as reported by His disciples. That's a bit of a disappointment for me.
Instead, you picked an extract from a writer who doesn't understand what it is Jesus had prophesied in those verses - to be born again by the Spirit.
I note also, this was written when many thirsty members of denominational churches and new converts had been seeking and finding a deep(er) walk with God in the Holy Spirit. He was pouring out, upon and into many, some of whom had heard of the Holy Spirit mainly in the closing benediction at church, until then.
Groping for a way to express what he was being [i]told about[/i] Mr Baer didn't produce a fair exposition of the [u]biblical[/u] experience of baptism in the Spirit: 'Rather, one tries to "center down" and become open to the ''inner light" within himself, to "that of God in every man,'' to the "leading of the Spirit.'' (Perspectives on the New Pentecostalism, Spitter, Richard A. Baer, 1976, p 154)'
His description better fits transentendal meditation, which was (also) in fashion, because of pop stars' interest in it, (than to what it is to be born again and waiting in God's presence), except that he capitalises 'spirit', which changes that meaning a little, and, to what 'Spirit' with a capital 's' is he referring? I think that's what you mean. Yes?
Do you know that Oswald Chambers said 'If the Spirit doesn't move me, I move the Spirit'. I know exactly what he means, but, it isn't an accurate way to express it. All he's really saying is that God hears him when he cries. That's not unscriptural. Just as 'God within' is not unscriptural to those who have been [u]born[/u] of Him.
Even, that we are made in God's image implies there is something of God in every man. But, it is [i]not[/i] from that [u]fallen[/u] image of God that the movings of His Spirit emanate, but from the Spirit Himself, stirring the human spirit to provoke an expression of Him through our flesh. (Again) this [u]is[/u] Christlike and nothing to be ashamed of, or by.
I hope you might think about the verses I posted and answer more succintly the next time, if possible?
| 2007/9/25 19:07|
| Re: Is speaking in tongues...|
Katy I missed your post to HE_Reigns, where you said:
Quote:This is fine. You are amongst quite a few here who would say the same.
You see, I too have received the Baptism of Fire Jesus Baptizes with, and never once spoke in an unknown tongue, or prayed in an unknown tongue.
So, what's the problem? Do you think you're the only person who's aware there are other spirits imitating the gift of tongues in churches? You may not mean to, but by offering such an unrelenting stream of nagativity towards the gift, you're giving the impression you don't believe the real Holy Ghost gift of tongues exists today - as if God has changed?
There can be no good reason for giving an impression that the [i]biblical[/i] gift of tongues is suspect. It is not.
What disobedient and men [i]misled[/i] have done, calling them the gifts of the Spirit, is the problem. Meanwhile, [u]we[/u] can all support the whole word of God, and trust His judgement about which gifts He gives to whom.
I believe some people need tongues, but others [i]need[/i] another gift, both cases in order for the body to function as effectively as possible on earth, as the generations roll through.
Please, let's try to believe in one another in love, and trust His distribution of graces to His people. Let's show it like it's supposed to be. :-D
| 2007/9/25 19:52|
Dorcas, I believe you are presenting again a presupposition of something I never said. With that I really can't give an answer to your reply, except like this:
However having many many friends who DO speak in tongues, have with out a doubt substituted the Born Again Experience of being Baptized into the Body of Christ for their tongues experience as the evidence, having NO understanding of the Cross or the Power of the Cross and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. When bringing many of these scriptures here to this thread, no one here as well seemed to expound as if they knew the are two different things.
All I know, including Compliments statement also practice being "Slain in the Spirit". This is not in scripture....yet many swear by it. Where is caution here? Obviously not warnings in scripture, for who really reads the Word and obeys it? We're now living by feelings, not by faith....by earthly blessings, but not spiritual blessings.
Yes, and MANY I know who do practice these things also live lives unaware of the power of the Cross and our risen life In Christ that breaks the power of sin, our attachment to this world and worldliness. If you are to look at the teachings of many NEW Pentecostals you will also find many also affiliated with WOF...who are still in this world, and of this world...the prosperity Gospel Gang. Somehow, they seemed to have meshed.
This IS no secret to many concerned Christians who being of the Old School know how rampant this ungodly teaching is and how it has overtaken many wonderful churches.
I presented the other position of these concerns from other Godly ministers. To have one subject DIVIDE the Church as this subject has needs to be looked at from ALL perspectives.
We are, Dorcas, living in the time of the falling away of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and His atonement for our sin. Many deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, and many take the side of those who also deny the Deity of Jesus Christ.
If my words don't apply to you, then you should be in agreement, rather then argument, and you all should be concerned about the souls of men and women.
We know anti-christ is coming with **LYING signs and wonders** we're seeing even today...and you say we should not be concerned????? What part of the Church do you suppose this is coming through?
Paul and the Apostles warned the Church even 2000 years ago that anti-christs were all ready infiltrating the Church, and you think today is not worse? The Bible clearly teaches that it is going to get worse and worse.
We have 7 letters written to the Church in Revelation about false teachers and false prophets, IN THE CHURCH. They weren't talking about in the world. This is where the great deception is...not in the world, but in the Church.
Read the letters again with that in mind, and you will see the words of Jesus to the CHURCHES who let false teacher in.
Not everything supernatural is spiritual.
If God has not placed this on your heart, then he has placed something else on your...but this He has placed on mine, for reasons you may not understand. Each in the Body has a Gift and a calling out for our mission and responsibility.
To question one's Gift, because it is not yours, or you don't understand it, is in disobedience.
I don't seek the approval of man, but of God.
Are you more concerned with *my Gift* and have neglected your own? You all seem to put so much emphasis on the Gift of Tongues. What about the OTHER GIFTS...that YOU NOW want to question as not biblical. Is there some hypocrisy going on here?
My first comment here was about my Brother in law who was hurt by a terrible teaching that if he didn't speak in tongues he was not saved. So yes, it hits close to home as well. Did anyone reply back and say, I am so sorry...not one person!
What did that say to me or anyone else tuning in with the same issue.
I do believe Paul West and Reformer took many of the same positions I have. Why aren't you questioning them?
Love in Christ
| 2007/9/25 21:06|
Quote:One can get too extreme. We have extreme legalism, extreme liberalism. We have those who are extreme on the tongues issue and even to say that if you don't speak in tongues your not saved. They have forgotten that it's by grace are we saved thru faith. The Corinthian Church was very much like we are today, they were extreme in everything. Even though it was a Church of great faith, moved in the gifts of the Spirit, Paul had to admonish and warn them on a lot of issues.
God always moves beyond denominational walls and its just that many Baptists aren't as hyper as Pentecostals and the charismatic church
Thanks for sharing that praise report about the Baptists, thats encouraging news.
| 2007/9/25 21:49|
You all seem to put so much emphasis on the Gift of Tongues. What about the OTHER GIFTS...that YOU NOW want to question as not biblical. Is there some hypocrisy going on here?
[i]Katy, I think the emphasis on this thread was on 'tongues' because that was "the topic" and the 'Title' of this thread.
Possibly, "the fruit of The Spirit" could be beneficially introduced into this discussion at this point[/i] -
[b]By R.A. Torrey -
An exceedingly important thought about the Holy Spirit's power is found in Galatians 5:22,23,
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
The Holy Spirit brings forth in the believer Christlike graces of character (Compare Romans 5:5; 14:17; 15:13). All real beauty of character, all real Christlikeness in us, is the Holy Spirit's work. It is His "fruit." He bears it; not we. Note that these graces are not said to be the fruits of the Spirit; they are the "fruit." There is a unity of origin running all through the multiplicity of manifestation; and not some of these graces, but all, will appear in everyone in whom the Holy Spirit is given full control.
It is a beautiful life that is set forth in these verses. Every word is worthy of earnest study and profound meditation: "Love," "joy," "peace," "longsuffering," "gentleness," "goodness," "faith," "meekness," "self-control." Is not this the life we all long for, the Christ life? Is it not natural to us, and it is not attainable by an effort of the "flesh," or nature. The life that is natural for us is set forth in the three preceding verses (19-21). But when the indwelling Spirit is given full control in the one He inhabits; when we are brought to realize the utter badness of the flesh, and give up in helpless despair of ever attaining to anything really good in its power; when, in other words, we come to the end of self, and just give over the whole work of making us what we ought to be to the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT, then, and only then, these holy graces of character are His "fruit."
Do you wish these graces in your character and life? Renounce self utterly, and all it's strivings after holiness; and let the Holy Spirit, who dwells in you, take full control and bear His own glorious fruit. We get the same essential truth from another point of view in Galatians 2:20 (R.V., Am. App.), " I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself up for me."
Settle it clearly and forever that the flesh can never bear this fruit, that you can never attain these things by your own effort, that they are "the fruit of the Spirit." We hear a good deal in these days about "ethical culture," which usually means a cultivation of the flesh until it bears the fruit of the Spirit. It cannot be done, until thorns can be made to beat figs, and a bramblebush, grapes (Matt. 12:33, Luke 6:44). We hear also a good deal about "character building." That is all very well, if you let the Holy Spirit do the building, and then it is not so much building as fruit-bearing. (See, however, II Pet. 1:5-7.) We hear also about "cultivating graces of character," but we must always bear in mind that the way to cultivate true graces of character is by submitting ourselves utterly to the Spirit to do His work. This is "sanctification of the Spirit" (I Pet. 1:2; II Thess. 2:13).[/b]
| 2007/9/25 22:10|
One thing I personally love about praying in tongues is the intamacy that it creates between me and the Lord. When I pray in tongues, I know that it is only between me and the Lord. What a special way to speak to the One.
Embrace all the gifts. If you do not have this gift of tongues, or want the the baptism with tongues...
[u][b]James 4:2 (NKJV)[/b][/u]
Yet you do not have because you do not ask.
Why not ask? Father will never turn His ear from you. Give it a try, you got nothing to loose.
Also a fine piece of advice to anyone...
[u][b]1 Corinthians 14:17-19 (New King James Version)[/b][/u]
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Saved through grace
| 2007/9/26 0:35||Profile|
Katy, I think the emphasis on this thread was on 'tongues' because that was "the topic" and the 'Title' of this thread.
Possibly, "the fruit of The Spirit" could be beneficially introduced into this discussion at this point -
He-Reigns, I couldn't agree with you more.
If you do someday go back and read from the beginning, the emphasis has always been on tongues.
It was my reply to Dorcas ONLY in answering her questions to ME that the subject of OTHER Gifts came up at all. In light of the discussion on tongues, it occured to me that all Gifts, regardless of tongues, should do one thing only...Glorify God and the Word of God which would be proclaiming truth whether it operates through one gift or another....it's all coming through the same Spirit, whether in unknown Tongues or the English language.
Keeping that in context, let's try to keep our conversations in the context of the spirit they were make.
The fire is/was out......no need blowing more air to try to re-kindle.
Love in Christ
| 2007/9/26 5:59|
| Re: Is speaking in tongues...|
If you haven't discovered it already, I think you'd enjoy the richness and unity in Christ, of interpretation of scripture in the book to which MikeB drew our attention in his thread 'A most important work', [u]The doctrine of the Holy Spirit[/u], (an exposition from Romans) by GW North. The thread is in the Articles and Sermons forum. Your posting from Torrey reminded me that I'm part way through reading and need to get back and finish it.
| 2007/9/26 8:54|
If someone said that they were filled with the holy Spirit but did not speak in tongues or prophesied, and you know by the bible that those who did receive the holy Spirit spoke in tongues and prophesied should we believe him?
Yes or No?
| 2007/9/26 15:38|
Compliments, Here is the answer to your question, or rather what is your answer to the following scripture. Do you see that(Saul) Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit? Do you see that he prophesied? Is preaching that Jesus Christ IS the Son of God preaching or prophesying?
The Testamony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophesy, and yes all that receive Jesus Christ will indeed testify He is the Son of God. That's what happens when one gets "saved", whether they speak in English, a foreigh language, or unknown tongues, the Same Holy Spirit working through the new Born Again Believer will testify in one fashion or another Jesus Christ Is the Son of God.
They preach the Deity of Jesus Christ.
SO My question back is, Do you believe Paul? No where does it say tongues or prophesying in Paul's conversion...but it does say preached ...Does that count?
1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
| 2007/9/26 18:20|