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 Re:

Quote:
This teaching that one must speak in tongues or he does not have the Holy Spirit was not taught by the early church, it is not mentioned anywhere in the NT, or implicitly taught by Paul or Peter. Church history bears this to be true.



Absolutely correct PaulWest, Thank you.


But I believe this was a SIGN Gift, at the beginning of Pentecost, as spoken of in Hebrews.

Remember Hebrews was first written to Believing Jews who knew of the Prophesy concerning OTHER Tongues.

At Pentecost, it was JEWS who were saved, Jews who living in different parts of the world who had come together. The Day of Pentecost, which occurs 50 days after Passover is a major Jewish feast day. Shavuot (Ashkenazi pronunciation: Shavuos, Hebrew: שבועות; literally, "Feast of Weeks") is a Jewish holiday that occurs on the sixth day of the Hebrew month of Sivan (late May or early June). It marks the conclusion of the Counting of the Omer and the day the Torah was given to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai. It is one of the shalosh regalim, the three Biblical pilgrimage festivals mandated by the Torah.
The celebration of Shavuot is directly linked to the date of Passover. The Torah mandates the seven-week Counting of the Omer, beginning on the second day of Passover and culminating after seven weeks, the next day being Shavuot. This counting of days and weeks expresses anticipation and desire for the Giving of the Torah. At Passover, the Jewish people were freed from being slaves to Pharaoh; at Shavuot they accepted the Torah and became a nation committed to serving God.
Shavuot has many aspects and as a consequence is called by several names. In the Torah it is called Feast of Weeks

(Hebrew: חג השבועות, Hag ha-Shavuot, Exodus 34:22, Deuteronomy 16:10); Festival of Reaping (Hebrew: חג הקציר, Hag ha-Katsir, Ex. 23:16), and Day of the First Fruits (Hebrew יום הבכורים, Yom ha-Bikkurim, Numbers 28:26). The Mishnah and Talmud refer to Shavuot as Atzeret (Hebrew: עצרת, a solemn assembly), as it provides closure for the festival activities during and following the holiday of Passover. Since Shavuot occurs 50 days after Passover, Christians gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκόστη, "fiftieth day"). However, the actual Christian commemoration of Pentecost occurs on the seventh Sunday after Easter.


Remember Cornelius was the FIRST Gentile saved….and that didn’t happen on the day of Pentecost. It was as *SIGN to PETER and Company* that Yes Indeed, Gentiles were also heirs with Christ. Just read about the dream etc that Peter had to go through showing him what God has cleansed don’t call unclean.

Peter in Galatia was still narrow minded about Gentiles when Paul had to call him down for his hypocrisy.




Hebrews 2
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


Compliments, what I find very interesting is other parts of scripture Paul talks of the Gifts, all including the gift of Prophesy, Tongues is not mentioned again after 1st Corinthians 14.


Ephesians 4:

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


Romans 12:

6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
9Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.



You are ASSUMING all who receive the Holy Spirit speak in tongues at least once.

There is NO scripture to back up what you are saying. If this were a fact, it would have very clear teaching without any shadow of a doubt that tongues is evidence of salvation.

The EVIDENCE of your salvation is that you are a NEW Creation in Christ Jesus, Who through the Promise of the “New Covenant” will receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit….” ( NOT THE GIFT OF TONGUES) I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to walk in my statutes.

If the New Covenant Promise of the Holy Spirit insists one must have evidence of Tongues , it would read,

"I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to speak in Tongues". Don't put words in God's mouth that are not there.

One really MUST read the WHOLE council of God, and not base those prejudiced ideas on only one or two scriptures, using your own imaginary mind to fill in the blanks where none need to be filled in at all. That's EXACTLY how the Virgin Mary has become more than scripture teaches.

Read Galatians where Paul said the Promise of the Spirit will come to the Gentiles, and find ONE verse referring to TONGUES as the evidence. You Won’t.


Let’s not cause division by forcing a doctrine that simply is not in scripture.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did


[b][color=FF0000]PS: The Gift of the Spirit is the Gift of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus that set us free from the Law of sin and death. ****Romans6-8 never once mention TONGUES [/color][/b]

 2007/9/22 15:12









 Re:

Quote:

Compliments wrote:
There are so many people that want to disprove this aspect of the infilling the holy Spirit. I sometimes wonder if they are afraid of it, or afraid that they would look foolish if they spoke something they don't understand, or they are trying to reason away anything that looks spiritual.

I have explained all the instances that are found in the book of Acts and each time I get the same reply, "I don't see that as being the initial evidence", so they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears saying, "Explain away the infilling the holy Ghost so we don't have to embrace it. Paul we know, Jesus we know, but this holy Ghost we don't want to know."

Hi Bro. Compliments

Is this comment anything to do with my first post in this thread (on page 1)?

If you do a search you will find that I do believe that tongues are for today, and have (after indeed being initially scared of it!) been moving in this gift for many years (since around 1975).

I just don't believe that Acts supports this gift as [i]necessarily[/i] being the initial evidence of being filled with the Spirit!

This point may have already been answered (I'm still reading the posts on page 1), but just wanted to make my position clear on this subject, in case you want to lump me with those "having itching ears" etc. :-P

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/9/22 17:02









 Re:

Quote:
By attempting to validate a spiritual experience of inward consequence by the sounding of an outward bell, we are not wise in our dealings, and furthermore, we relegate God's sovereignty to the predictable formulaic persuasions of man.

The just shall live by faith still stands today whether your filled with the Spirit or not. The Reformers as great as they have been were not filled with the Holy Spirit. The message that was given to them was the foundation message of that we are saved by grace thru faith. That message was more important to be established in the earth before anything else was to be imparted.

The Earth was held captive to a works based gospel. Then the doctrine of baptism by immersion was re-instituted. Then the laying on of hands. Then in 1906 the other baptism was re-instituted to the Church, the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Then the gifts of the Spirit became operational once again. And yes with that type of activity going on your going to have Satan's workers out there too trying to copy it and causing confusion.

When you said, "to say that the reformers did not have the Spirit is preposterous". Would it be upsetting if they did not? Would you think any less of them, I know I don't.
---------------------------------------------

Hi Jeanette, I read your post on page one of this thread, but I didn't comment on it. Nice reading though.
;-)

 2007/9/22 17:16









 Re:

Quote:
Compliments wrote:
There are so many people that want to disprove this aspect of the infilling the holy Spirit. I sometimes wonder if they are afraid of it, or afraid that they would look foolish if they spoke something they don't understand, or they are trying to reason away anything that looks spiritual.



Compliments, If we are to walk in the Spirit as is instructed by Paul in Romans 8, are you saying there is *another* Holy Spirit.

The Gift of the Holy Spirit or as John the Baptist said referring to Jesus, He will baptize you with fire. So really it is Jesus who baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, Baptized into his death and raised up an New Creation.

We are Baptized into the Body of Christ by that SAME SELF SPIRIT the moment we are Born Again.

The Holy Spirit is our Comfortor
Our Teacher...the one who leads us into all truth, and illuminates the Word of God.

When I walk in the Spirit, live in the Spirit IN CHRIST a New Creation....I am not speaking in tongues....I'm living by the faith of Christ in me.

When Stephen was stoned to death, I'm sure he had a special filling of the Holy Spirit, but spoke in plain Hebrew I'm sure for all to hear...."I see Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father".

The Holy Spirit in us is the Power of God working through us, conforming us to His image, from Glory to Glory, even by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3. This Chapter is referring to the New Covenant promise that the Law is written in our Hearts...our New Heart with the firey finger of God, and not on stone tablets.

To put all the emphasis on tongues and not the real MEAT of scripture concerning the Ministry of the Holy Spirit is like worshiping the wrapping paper around the Gift. Jesus Christ IS the Gift.

We are saved by GRACE through Faith, it is a GIFT of God, not of works lest any man should boast,

I wonder if people confuse The GIFT of salvation with the GIFT*S* of the Spirit, calling THAT the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Receiving a Spiritual Gifts IS NOT the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or what some call the second blessing. There is only ONE Baptism as stated by Paul in Ephesians 4.

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

 2007/9/22 17:26
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
The Reformers as great as they have been were not filled with the Holy Spirit.



I hope this isn't circular reasoning. On what do you base this absolute statement? Because they didn't speak in tongues?

Quote:
That message was more important to be established in the earth before anything else was to be imparted.



Signs and wonders were reported before Azusa street, before Charlie Parham and his Topeka school. The early Salvation Army had reports of the Holy Spirit picking men up and floating them above the crowds of people and dropping them at the altar. SA leaders like Booth and Brengle didn't speak in tongues, but they were filled with the Spirit, and wrote of it. R.A. Torrey experienced it and didn't mention tongues, Moody wrote of his Holy Spirit baptism (without tongues), as did George Fox, before whom men "quaked" in the awesome presence of God. If these men were filled with the Spirit, how then how can you say the reformers were not filled?

If you would have heard Edward Payson or John Hyde pray, you would have fallen on your face before the glory of God. Such are the accounts of men who heard them pray, and yet these were not filled with the Holy Spirit? On certain occasions when John Wesley preached outdoors, thousands of men and women would "go down" as if "hit by cannon fire" overtaken by the fear of God. George Whitefield was known to break down in the middle of his messages and weep. R.M. McCheyne would be interupted in the middle of his sermons by grown men crying out, suddenly overcome by conviction of sin. He would have to pause his sermon as they were carried from the sanctuary. Have you heard of John Wesley Redfield? Or Gypsy Smith? Or Mordecai Ham and the opposers of revival being struck down by God and dying in his meetings? And you say these ministers were not Spirit-filled?

What do we have today to compare? TBN? Programs and charasmatic dramas and highly publicized "miracle crusades"? Tongues are prevalent in all these functions, and yet these are embarassments.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/9/22 17:36Profile









 Re:

I really don't like coming head to head with you Paul because I deeply respect you.

I base all my findings on the word of God. What other primer shall we use? Experiences? God forbid!

I want to ask you a question. Do you subscribe to the idea that when you accept the LORD Jesus Christ into your heart and that you have totally are sorry for your sins in deep contrition, do you believe that one has received the holy Spirit without the evidence of the speaking in tongues and/or prophesying?

Before you answer that question, I want you to fully understand that I think that your presence here on this forum is absolutely great, you have a lot to share and I have enjoyed reading what you have to say. And I will continue to respect that about you regardless of how you'll answer my question, in other words, your my brother regardless. I wanted to make that perfectly clear.

 2007/9/22 22:25









 Re: :-?

Quote:
When I walk in the Spirit, live in the Spirit IN CHRIST a New Creation....I am not speaking in tongues....I'm living by the faith of Christ in me.

Katy, you seem to think that I have an argument with you, I do not. I agree with your postings, I don't know what your trying to prove to me when I agree with you. Let me make it perfectly clear to everyone, I DON'T BELIEVE THE BIBLE SAYS THAT IF YOU DON'T SPEAK IN TONGUES YOUR NOT SAVED, THIS IS A LIE. WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH.

(sorry for the caps)

 2007/9/22 22:31
Search_Me
Member



Joined: 2007/7/24
Posts: 42


 Re:

thank you all for your responses. please don't let this question of mine stir you up to fight one another on secondary issues. if you find your flesh wanting to correct someone else please be sure to take that person before the throne of God in prayer before you seek to correct them.much prayer and fasting will do more for us than fighting.may God bless everyone on sermon index and thank you all so much for your replies to my question.


_________________
Ryan

 2007/9/22 23:45Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I base all my findings on the word of God.



Brother, I understand this, and I try to do the same. This doctrine of "tongues at baptism" is based completely on inference, just as certain doctrines concerning the rapture are. They are not taught implicitly. My belief that tongues are not the formula evidence for the Spirit baptism is threefold: 1. Early church history proves otherwise, and men of old who were obviously filled with the Holy Spirit; 2. Absence of implicit teaching in scripture and curious non-mention of tongues at the baptism of certain key individuals, like Paul in Acts 9:18 (it seems as though the Holy Spirit deliberately left out the mentioning of tongues [i]if they did occur[/i] at Paul's filling); 3. Doing such puts the Holy Spirit's sovereignity in a frame of predictability to cater to man's outward lookings. This clashes with everything else we know to be in line with the nature of God.

Quote:
Do you subscribe to the idea that when you accept the LORD Jesus Christ into your heart and that you have totally are sorry for your sins in deep contrition, do you believe that one has received the holy Spirit without the evidence of the speaking in tongues and/or prophesying?



I regard these as two separate occurences. I believe there is a difference between being born again [i]of[/i] the Holy Spirit, and being [i]filled[/i] with the Spirit. My whole point of challenge in this thread is whether tongues or not has to be present for the validation of the latter.

Quote:
I want you to fully understand that I think that your presence here on this forum is absolutely great, you have a lot to share and I have enjoyed reading what you have to say. And I will continue to respect that about you regardless of how you'll answer my question, in other words, your my brother regardless. I wanted to make that perfectly clear.



I really appreciate this. Thank you for the sincere friendship and honor. Brother, I assure you, the same respect is given to you, regardless of you agreeing with me or not. I wouldn't bother debating this issue with anyone were I not persuaded, both scripturally and experientially, of the contrary view. Nonetheless, this is not a salvation issue (at least to the non-UPCers); I myself speak in tongues, and spoke in tongues at my filling...imagine that!

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/9/23 8:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The only lie in your statement Katy is "That you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved", you are right, that is a lie. In saying that, the proof that one has received the holy Spirit AT THE TIME YOU RECEIVE IT, is the speaking in tongues. But I do agree with PART of your statement that there are people that say that if you don't speak in tongues your not saved, that is a lie.




Added/Edited:
Compliments, when I was Born Again, I definitely received the Holy Spirit, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and my Spiritual Gift or Gifts at that same time....but never spoke in tongues.

Because I had been Born of the Spirit, Born Again, and did testify to this, also being in a very conservative church who was totally afraid to even bring up the words Holy Spirit for fear they would be labeled Charismatic, I went through great persecution. I had fingers pointed in my face and told, "The only time the Holy Spirit comes on you is when you witness".

Their confusion was, they didn't understand living in the Spirit or being Born Again. They completely denied the scriptures of Romans 6-8.

Also when doing a Chapter by Chapter study in Romans, the pastor jumped from Chapter 5 and the following week we were in Chapter 9. This happened more than once in other Churches (same demomination), until I put it all together....Legalists hate those chapters.

It was Romans 6-8, the missing part of the Gospel that I actually came into a full understanding of Salvation, and that I had to do something....obey from the Heart...I am Crucified with Christ. When I totally surrendered my life, THEN came the power of the Holy Spirit. OH, He may have been there all along, I really don't know, But then is when I believe I was Born Again.


Compliments, I do agree that when one is saved they will Prophesy about Jesus Christ being in their life. (That's what I was doing and that's what caused persecution. Galatians says, teh children of the flesh HATE the children of the Spirit, even today)

A verse in Revelation says the "Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophesy".

Anyone who receives Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will definitely attest to it.

If I'm not mistaken, I do believe this is what you are referring to.?????

Jesus said if we are ashamed to confess Him before men.......well, it's not a good reply back!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS: Added

Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


PS Again:
It can't be stressed enough that one MUST be Born Again FIRST before any Gifts can operate. I have seen also too many Charismatics who have no understanding of Romans 6-8, yet their whole life is operating in these gifts. Just because you may see the operation of the supernatural, if you don't first see Chirst In You, it's counterfeit to the core. These are the same people who get charged up by getting slain in the spirit to FEEL closer to God, rather then applying Romans 12:1&2 for the renewing of their minds.

Or Philippians 3...that I may KNOW Him, and the ****POWER of His Resurrection****, and the fellowship of His suffering, being made conformable unto His death that I may attain to
the resurrection...not that I have already attained...but I press on.

This is how one gets CLOSER to the Lord. We must FIRST be raised up together with Him. He doesn't empower our old flesh, He cricifies it, and it's our NEW MAN In Christ that is empowered.

God does not put New Wine in Old Wineskins, He puts New wine in New Wineskins.

So, the only message whether in other tongues or in you native language should be, Ye must be Born Again, Christ in You the Hope of Glory.

Anything else would just be babel. And you do know, even in paganism, they also spoke in jibber jabber.

Only the Word of God can discern the difference, For the Word of God is sharper than a two edge sword, piercing between soul and spirit, bone and marrow.









 2007/9/23 9:11





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