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 Re:

Katy said:

Quote:
One of the most dangerous and damaging teachings in the Church Today as well as when Paul wrote Corinthians 14, is that you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved or have received the Holy Spirit. This is a lie.




Compliments said:
Quote:
The only lie in your statement Katy is "That you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved", you are right, that is a lie. In saying that, the proof that one has received the holy Spirit AT THE TIME YOU RECEIVE IT, is the speaking in tongues. But I do agree with PART of your statement that there are people that say that if you don't speak in tongues your not saved, that is a lie.




Compliments, I thoroughly confused by your comment.

NOT everyone is given the Gift of Tongues. Tongues is a GIFT, one of the Spiritual Gifts.

My brother in law( a once devout Catholic) many years ago got saved. He found himself hooked up with those who were of the Tongues belief that you MUST be able to speak in Tongues if you are truly saved. Well, after 5 years in a Church with this constant teaching, and not able to speak in tongues, he departed from not only that church but the Christian faith all together.

This is what I am saying is soooooo dangerous in many who are extreme on the subject. And yes, today, there are still some extreme teachings on the GIFT of Tongues.

Speaking in Tongues doesn't save you, Jesus Christ at Calvary did.

AND all the Gifts can be counterfeited as well. So, in Truth, one must KNOW the LORD and HIS WORD to be able to distinguish between what is of GOD and what is of(SAtan who can transform himself into an angel of light that can turn himself into a preacher of righteousness).

We know anti-christ is coming with ***great signs and wonders****, and many will be deceived, thinking these are truly Spiritual Gifts, when all along it will be Satan. How can one KNOW?

John 17, that they may **KNOW** me, the ONLY TRUE GOD.

To KNOW here means the same as when Adam KNEW Eve. It's the most intimate of union between two.

And with many of these extreme teachings comes the unbiblical teaching of being slain in the Spirit. People who have *lost that loving feeling*, or are looking for love in all the wrong places find themselves standing in line for this whatever, for what? To FEEL closer to God? We live by faith, not feelings....

We must be careful that we don't seek out any Gift for it's feeling...that is fleshly and carnal. Many who want to speak in tongues want the *feeling* manifestation. Bad reason! Jesus didn't die on a Cross, and shed His blood so we can speak in tongues.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did





 2007/9/22 8:25
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

I don't get it, why are tongues something people desire to have? You never hear anyone say, "Man, I wish I could get the gift to prophesy the truth!" or "Boy, I wish I could have the gift of love?"

Personally, for most, not all, who desire this gift of tongues is for the flesh, for self edification. The bible clearly says that we should not think of ourselves highly over others. I am not debating those who say they have this gift, but it grieves me when others desire it so much! When people see other speaking in tongues, people get jealous. It was a sign for unbelievers and not a secret prayer language, if it is spoken in a congregation it is to be interpretated.

My desire is to pursue Him, to know His Righteous and Holiness. To have a deeper revelation of the Savior. To hate my sin, and to love Him. That is the gift I desire and I am sure it is for many on SI too!

blessings


 2007/9/22 8:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:
My desire is to pursue Him, to know His Righteous and Holiness. To have a deeper revelation of the Savior. To hate my sin, and to love Him. That is the gift I desire and I am sure it is for many on SI too!



Reformer, I couldn't agree with you more.

Here are some scriptures for those still
Quote:
who desire this gift of tongues is for the flesh,



2 Thessalonians 2:9
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Revelation 13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, ****whose deadly wound was healed.****

Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. (Why, because of the counterfeit gift of Healing?)

Revelation 13:14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those MIRACLES which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


What will become of those who live after the FLESH? Moved by the FLESH? ***Romans 8

Love in Christ
Katy-Did



 2007/9/22 9:16









 Re:

.
*****Search_Me asked an honest question, please don't hijack his thread to make this a "should we speak in tongues or not" debate.[edit: he already stated he believed in it.] (Resurrect one of the many threads already started for this or start a new one!). Thanks! ******


Ryan, I listened and watched a video of Zac Poonen this morning preaching on "The Spirit and the Cross" and it was very good. It's not about tongues but it is on knowing the Holy Spirit and it's very good. It reminded me of you when you said that you didn't have good memorization. You'll be blessed by it!! Listen when you have a chance but here is what caught my ears.....

God bless....

Zac Poonen Video

[url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=105&date=07_09&title=The+Spirit+And+The+Cross]The Spirit and the Cross[/url]
[11.00 minutes into it approx and pardon any typing mistakes!] All the great Christians you read about in the Bible, never had a Bible themselves. Abraham didn't have a Bible, Job didn't have a Bible. Enoch who walked with God 300 years didn't have Bible. Even the New Testament Christians, most of them were running around from cave to cave, they didn't have a Bible. The first printed Bibles came around 1500 AD, just about 500 years ago. So how did people lives so many years ago without Bibles? How did God expect Christians to live for 1,500 years without the Bible? They couldn't have a quiet time with the Bible every morning; do you know what was most important for those Christians? The Holy Spirit. The way of the Cross. That's what makes a person spiritual. The reason I say that is because we live in a day when knowledge and information has been given great importance and I found in our churches also there's so much of Bible knowledge and information, understanding of doctrine and truth and all that but not a sufficient dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit and not a sufficient understanding on the way of the Cross. And that's the reason why we don't have more spiritual people in our midst. [13.25]

[47.10] Luke's gospel chapter 9 and verse 23. You've got to read this verse carefully. If anyone wants to come after me in other words if someone wants to be my follower, if someone wants to walk in my footsteps, anybody, anywhere in the world, if you want to walk in my footsteps... there's something you've got to do every single day. It says you must deny yourself, take up your cross everyday if you want to follow me.... You can understand all the doctrines in the world, you can have great understanding in your head, pray and sing like an angel and shout and all that but you will not be able to follow me if you don't take up the cross everyday. Now if you do take up your cross and you can't sing for nuts, that's ok you'll still follow Jesus. Or you don't have much understanding of the Bible, you can still follow Jesus.

You know, being able to quote the Bible and all that, that's not such a great qualification. I love some places in the Old Testament and it says, "yeah, somewhere someone has said..." Think of a verse like this, this is the Holy Spirit inspired apostle right. saying in Hebrews 4 4, For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: : "God rested on the seventh day..." I say, "Hey, you mean you don't even know that that is Genesis chapter 2 verse 1? "Somewhere someone said???"
It's amazing, they didn't give so much importance to knowing the Bible so well as to be able to quote it.

Today we can quote but we don't have that life. It's good to know the Bible, especailly if you're a techer, you need to know where it is but what I'm trying to say is that these people, the man who wrote Scripture couldn't even know where this verse was. He said, "Somewhere, I don't remember exactly which book it is, but it said God rested on the seventh day." Every Christian knows that in Genesis but he is not ashamed to say, "you know I don't know, it's somewhere." But they had the life.

The point is this, they had the Holy Spirit and they took up the Cross and follow Jesus everyday, that's why they had the life. We can major on so many other things like singing, attendig meetings and reading the Bible and miss this way of sacrifice. When I was 24 the Lord showed me the way of the Cross and it changed my life. I understood somethign of the way of the Cross, the way of sacrifice, the way of self-denial is the ONLY WAY to follow Jesus. I'm so glad that I understood that as a young man, I wish you young people would understand it now. It'll change your life, when you come to my age, you'll be able to look back over a life with great joy and no regret by the way you lived if you chose the way of the Cross. When I had to choose a wife, I wanted to know if she understood the way of the Cross, most important, and when I discovered she knew that, I chose her. Cause it's pointless, one person understanding the way of the Cross and the other doesn't. It's a lifelong conflict. If you understand the way of the Cross, choose a partner who understands the way of the Cross. It's the way of life. It's the way of triumph.

And that's how it was when it says in Hebrews 12.2, "Let's run the race looking unto Jesus," it didn't say let's look unto Jesus who raised the dead or who walked on the water, it's says, "let's look unto Jesus who endured the Cross" everyday. The way of the Cross is the way to the Throne of God. [52.29]

 2007/9/22 9:42
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Quote:
Is speaking in tongues the first initial sign of the Filling of the Holy Spirit?



That was the question..Intens4him. believed in the gift of the Holy Spirit. So, logically, if one doesn't believe in tongues then they are not filled with the Holy Spirit? Could that not cause someone to be concerned if they hold that believe?

Plus, if you have something directly to say to me PM me, if you think you are the moderator of all the thread then talk to SI and maybe they will let you be a moderator. You have already hijacked one my threads early attacking me. You some what said I was sorry, but you didn't mean it! You then again mentioned me again on this thread. Quit trying to police SI. This is a public forum and if you don't like what others say, then LEAVE!! Apparently the person appreciated my response. Maybe you should quit trying to worry about what people are saying or think they are saying!!!!!!

And I don't appreciate you yelling at me!!! better watch it please we are to be adults, unless I am talking to someone who is a child.

Next time I will respond to you directly in PM. Since you FIRST stated what you stated your comment, for all to see, I must defend publicaly as well.




 2007/9/22 10:16Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I don't get it, why are tongues something people desire to have? You never hear anyone say, "Man, I wish I could get the gift to prophesy the truth!" or "Boy, I wish I could have the gift of love?"



I don't get it either, brother. I think Satan has perverted the doctrine of tongues and blown them all out of proportion, just like he did with water baptism a few centuries before. With tongues, fellowships either recklessly engage in a counterfeit, and by doing so cast an entire pall over the doctrine, or they go to the other extreme and cut them off completely. I do believe it's a satanically-contrived decoy to divert our our eyes from victory over sin and love and redirect them instead to the flesh and knowledge. Believers are made to feel either inferior for not having tongues, or ostracized [i]for[/i] having them. Obviously, this is not of God; this is the work of an enemy sewing tares in the garden.

Quote:
My desire is to pursue Him, to know His Righteous and Holiness. To have a deeper revelation of the Savior. To hate my sin, and to love Him. That is the gift I desire and I am sure it is for many on SI too!



You are on the right path. As someone who has spoken in tongues for years, and has been edified and built-up in doing so, I would cheerily relinguish the gift in a moment if I had to choose between tongues and righteousness. Our number one aim is to seek His righteousness and walk in proper union with Christ. If we must fervently desire something, let it be victory over sin, the love of the world, the love of money, the lust of the eyes. I'll take these over any gift any day, any time. I would rather live one day in sweet harmony with God, with an undefiled conscience, than raise an entire cemetery of corpses from the dead, and I'd rather pray one true, glory-touching prayer with my understanding in private, than a whole slew of unknown tongues before God and man.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/9/22 10:39Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Tongues is a heated subject. To those without the gift it places them at a crossroad.What do I do?
If i am part of the body that rejects tongues then i will see tongue tslkers though a certain light.
If i am part of the body that moves in the gifts i will prob want this gift also.
When I got saved it was in a non-denoninational church. Fortunately for me LOVE flowed heavily there.
I desired the gifts with great desire.This is where a person starts. This is the starting place.If you are not hungry for more you will not receive more.
Will you just stop for one moment and consider the hunger concept?
Coulld it be the 2 apostles that prayed at night in prison prayed in the spirit? It caused an earthquake.
What would you do if you were in mexico and asked to pray for a sick child?
I am talking about when you get there that you see the little girl ,15 years old, and she is in a baby bassonnet. She never developed. She looks up at you and smiles and opens her mouth and it is full of puss.
This happened to a friend of mine. I cried that night as i replayed that story in my mind.
Oh by the way my friend was so horrified he froze and couldnt pray.
Now tell me in the comfort of your world we dont need EVERY AVAILABLE RESOURSE FROM HEAVEN........GET THIS- "IT AAINT ABOUT US ITS ABOUT THEM. THE LOST AND HURTING WORLD".
Isnt it ironic that in our attempt to be so berrean and so doctrinally correct we reject what "tools" heaven offers.
If you want to try to NOT understand something stand in front of a mirror and look deeply into that persons eyes and say why is the church so weak?
Jesus said greater works shall you do........
Now tell me we dont need the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
iN OUR QUEST TO SORT OUT WHAT HEAVEN SAYS WE NEED WE END UP BEING WHAT WE OPPOSE.
........MAN CENTERED CHRISTIANS.
Its all about me. Go to a third world country. You like all of us will feel ashamed at our lack of power.
Are we so afraid of "seeking his hand" and not his face that we have parylized ourselves?
I mean who amongst us would see a man laying hands on people and seeing dramatic healings and turning to your doctrinally correct brother and saying "that man prob has some doctrinal point out of whack"
We must have more and more and more.I want it all. Iwant to see the dead raised.
Do you realize when you raise the dead you snatch a soul from the devil? Talk about kicking down satans gates! this is a start!
.......David

 2007/9/22 12:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:
NOT everyone is given the Gift of Tongues. Tongues is a GIFT, one of the Spiritual Gifts.

In every instance of everyone that received the holy Spirit in the book of Acts all spoke in tongues or prophesied. There could have been many more instances but the holy Spirit saw fit only to have these examples written down for our admonition.

There is not the slightest doubt in my mind Katy that not all have the gift of speaking in tongues, however when you receive the holy Spirit you will speak in tongues or prophesy. As Paul said, "Do all speak with tongues?" Of course not! What I am trying to convey is this that some who have spoken in tongues at the receiving of the holy Spirit may never speak in tongues again after that because they have not the gift. The speaking in tongues for that believer is to let the hearers know that one has received the holy Spirit, and example of this is when Peter was ministering to the gentiles.
Quote:
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

But in regards to what Paul said, "do all speak with tongues?", I know of whom Paul speaks of, I know those who have spoken in tongues when they received the holy Spirit and never spoke again after, for they have not the gift.
*******************************************
Quote:
We must be careful that we don't seek out any Gift for it's feeling...that is fleshly and carnal. Many who want to speak in tongues want the *feeling* manifestation. Bad reason! Jesus didn't die on a Cross, and shed His blood so we can speak in tongues.

In all my life as a believer I can count the number of times that I have felt God, and it's been few and far between. I can't for the life of me understand why we are calling this a tongue issue. It's a holy Spirit issue and His manifestations. I feel sorry for your in-law who was caught up in some sort of a Pentecostal cult who have their wires crossed regarding the great plan of salvation. I too was caught up in a similar outfit telling me that I was not saved unless I spoke in tongues. I went from a settled salvation to a fear based salvation of seeking "tongues" only. I was young and very naive. After I saw the hypocrisy of that movement I left and found another church and someone told me to stop seeking tongues and to seek Jesus. I started seeking the LORD to be filled, in a short period of time the hunger pangs of wanting to be filled was overwhelming and wonderful. I remember the night I was filled, I spoke very little of tongues, a couple of syllables and that was it. But I prayed with what I thought was pure gibberish, but I found out that as I prayed that way over time it took on different syllables and became more and more like a flowing river, it rolled out of me. There was no great feeling, just the feeling of my tongue moving around in my mouth, but I also felt like my spirit was being refreshed.

 2007/9/22 14:25









 Re:

Quote:
I don't get it, why are tongues something people desire to have? You never hear anyone say, "Man, I wish I could get the gift to prophesy the truth!" or "Boy, I wish I could have the gift of love?"

Most of the believers that I know want more than the speaking in other tongues. They want to be filled with more God's love, they want to be more effective in the ministry and the gifts of the Spirit. Any true believer who wants to KNOW the LORD intimately wants to be more effective in being used by Him. The only ones that just want to speak in tongues all the time and nothing else are the United Pentecostals and their affiliates. I know because I was once apart of the UPC (Under Privileged Children) :-P

P.S. Of course NOT all UPC are like this, I know many who long for more than just what they have to offer, I am talking about the organization at large.

 2007/9/22 14:47
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
But in regards to what Paul said, "do all speak with tongues?", I know of whom Paul speaks of, I know those who have spoken in tongues when they received the holy Spirit and never spoke again after, for they have not the gift.



And there are accounts of men of God throughout history who were filled with Spirit and never once spoke in tongues, not when they received the Spirit and not after. This teaching that one [i]must[/i] speak in tongues or he does not have the Holy Spirit was not taught by the early church, it is not mentioned anywhere in the NT, or implicitly taught by Paul or Peter. Church history bears this to be true. The whole doctrine is based on mere inference, "discovered" by a man who ran a Bible school in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. Are you willing to tell us that the first people genuinely filled with the Holy Spirit were only those who lived after Charles Fox Parham and who had had this experience? I believe Leonard Ravenhill was right to regard it as "junk theology" (I'm sorry if that sounds too offensive. I'm not here to mock anyone in their doctinal beliefs).

To say that Moody wasn't filled with the Spirit and Finney and Whitefield and Wesley and Fox and Andrew Murray and William Tyndale because an audible [i]outward sign[/i] could not be found to validate their supernatural infilling is preposterous, and not only that, considering the tremendous work and conversions and demolition to Satans's kingdom God wrought through their ministries and to suggest that the average Pentecostal Christian has more power than they have (from the genuine enduement) because someone at one time layed hands on them and they babbled something...is quite objectionable. I just cannot accept this.

What do we have to offer today as [i]fruit[/i] of the Spirit's genuine infilling other than believers speaking in tongues on Sunday and living mediocre, powerless lives Monday through Saturday? This type of thing squares with Pentecostal theology, but if you have the other way around -- wisdom and purity and power after the baptism but with [i]no[/i] tongues -- the believer is still considered unfilled. The doctinal sleuths will gather around with excitement and drill the excited believer, "Ah, but did you speak in tongues? Did you? Did you?"

"Uh...no."

"Ooooh...(scratches head) well, sorry, brother..."

By attempting to validate a spiritual experience of [i]inward[/i] consequence by the sounding of an [i]outward[/i] bell, we are not wise in our dealings, and furthermore, we relegate God's sovereignity to the predictable formulaic persuasions of man.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/9/22 14:51Profile





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