| Re: Is speaking in tongues ...|
Thank you for the affirmative response. :-)
Now I would like to say something again, (to all), which I think I mentioned in my first post in this thread.... Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones, (who if you've never heard or read any of his work is featured on this site), suggests that some people who receive the baptism in the Spirit speak in tongues only at that event, but never again.
I think he might also accept (though I'm not sure) that some people receive the Spirit but never speak in tongues. However, my point is more that he suggests also that the gift of tongues, such as we might hear bringing prophecy, which also requires an interpretation, is [u]the gift of tongues[/u], while the first example is more what Compliments is after - an utterance in a tongue - and, this is different. I believe Dr Jones would not have made such a suggestion, without some basis in experience, so I wanted to bring it to everyone's attention again for our consideration.
Katy, when you say
Quote:I feel your interpretation of Compliments' position as one which [i]questions[/i] 'the authority of scripture', is a bit of a stretch, as I've never seen anything from him which vaguely contradicts the authority of scripture. I am sure He knows it better than I, and that's one reason I'm respectful of his comments when I'm unable to agree or disagree, because I don't know [i]all[/i] the evidence he's weighed to come to his conclusions. Also, I find him willing to listen to new insight when it's shared.
If Paul is saying Tongues are one of the Gifts, and not all have the gift of tongues, then [b]why do you question the authority of Scripture[/b]...
He didn't immediately confess that all who receive the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues as you seem to be saying.
You also said
Quote:I heard someone once point out that even on the Damascus road, Paul knew enough to call the voice 'Lord', which the Lord graciously confirmed for us all by His reply. From then on, he was obedient, although not fully equipped for his task, spiritually.
Paul received the Holy Spirit and IMMEDIATELY confessed Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
God wanted his full attention, so He could say some very special and sobering things to the man, who, if he'd been behaving like that in our society today, we would say 'he's out of control'. How tenderly must Paul have loved the church after that, (on account of how he had 'wasted' it), after God had finished speaking to him and giving his sight back.
Perhaps, to Luke, Paul speaking in tongues wasn't the most important piece of news to report, in his record of those days! In the end, i thimk we have to manage with the scripture we have, and hold it all together as valid truth.
Btw, (Katy) did you see I'd answered you on "inner light" in the Quaker thread in Scripture and Doctrine? (I'm not pressing for an early reply.)
| 2007/9/27 12:08|
| Re: Is speaking in tongues ...|
Quote:Bro, I think you'll love the approach he takes. And no, it's not really about tongues, but it's very apposite. He led the way in the UK in the 1960s, preaching of the New Covenant, and firmly believed in the gifts to the extent that he developed open worship beyond anything I've come across since. If you find him dry and boring, tell me!
I will consider reading GW North's exposition on the Holy Spirit but first I would like to know if he is trying to explain away the speaking in tongues or is he one that has not received the holy Spirit. I find reading from writers who are writing about a subject they had not experienced is like reading the local newspaper, a lot of knowledge but no spiritual essence.
Tell me that I'm wrong :-?
Sorry you couldn't find it. Here's the link:
| 2007/9/27 12:21|
There is a false teaching circulating in Christendom that when you receive Christ into your heart, you have the holy Spirit. According to the Samaritan account the holy Spirit didn't show up until Peter and John came down to lay hands on them so that they might receive the holy Spirit.
Quote: by Paul West
This teaching that one must speak in tongues or he does not have the Holy Spirit was not taught by the early church, it is not mentioned anywhere in the NT, or implicitly taught by Paul or Peter. Church history bears this to be true.
In every instance of everyone that received the holy Spirit in the book of Acts all spoke in tongues or prophesied. There could have been many more instances but the holy Spirit saw fit only to have these examples written down for our admonition.
Quote: From Paul West:
I base all my findings on the word of God.
Brother, I understand this, and I try to do the same. This doctrine of "tongues at baptism" is based completely on inference, just as certain doctrines concerning the rapture are. They are not taught implicitly. My belief that tongues are not the formula evidence for the Spirit baptism is threefold: 1. Early church history proves otherwise, and men of old who were obviously filled with the Holy Spirit; 2. Absence of implicit teaching in scripture and curious non-mention of tongues at the baptism of certain key individuals, like Paul in Acts 9:18 (it seems as though the Holy Spirit deliberately left out the mentioning of tongues if they did occur at Paul's filling); 3. Doing such puts the Holy Spirit's sovereignity in a frame of predictability to cater to man's outward lookings. This clashes with everything else we know to be in line with the nature of God.
End of Quote from Paul West!!
Well, it seems as though Paul West was as confused as I am about your argument.
Now tell me why, with these EXACT statements as I made , Im the bad guy here and Paul West is telling you to stop having conversations with me on the subject when he has given you the exact same reference point.
I wont go back and bother you all with this hypocrisy in this conversation, but just say:
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling!!!!!!
Love in Christ
| 2007/9/27 14:56|
Katy-did, hi and God bless,I dont think you apply what you say.You say a teaching "tongues" causes division?
Psalms 1, I will answer your question with dorcas's reply.
Teaching tongues does not cause division, it's what one teaches about tongues that has concerned many and caused division...mainly one has not received the Holy Spirit if they don't speak in tongues or prophesy at the moment of salvation. However I did state paul PREACHED IMMEDIATELY at the time he received the Holy Spirit, according to scripture.
The order of Paul's receiving the Holy Spirit is recorded in scripture.
I leave you all with this:
Quote by Dorcas:
Now to be honest, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I'm uncomfortable with the bondage which insisting on tongues can bring people into. You hear of men who have fasted for months, or nearly committed suicide because they couldn't conform to this experience.
It is God who baptises... by His will we were born-again.
End of Quote
I would add, according to Dorcas's comment, that the BONDAGE this brings to others on the subject at hand, that would bring one to suicide, hits very close to home with me more than you could possibly know. With the suicide rate sky-rocketing beyond our wildest imagination among professing Christians should be of great concern.
Jesus Christ gave His life so we might Live our Life in and through Him. God is not the author of suicide!!!!!!! He is the Author of SALVATION!!! By GRACE you have been saved through Faith, and by faith when we receive Jesus Christ for teh forgivness of sin, we are sealed in the Holy Spirit, Baptized into His Body!
This is the message we should be teaching.....not mans messages that bring thoughts of suicide. This is NOT the Great Gospel of THE GOOD NEWS!!!
And OH by the way, the GOSPEL INCLUDES our WHOLE life in Christ, ...not just your initial salvation experience!
Love in Christ
| 2007/9/27 15:33|
katy-did, I love you and consider you my sister in the Lord.
We have 2 completely different backgrounds in the church.
I cut my teeth in the carismatic movement. I never knew a meeting that wasnt moving in the gifts. Thousands upon thousands of them.
when I was in pensacola I attended a black baptist church and guess what? those guys were moving in the gifts.What happened there is still fresh with me. I will never forget it.
I have been walking with the Lord for thiry + years.
This forum is so so keen on the abuses that most bros. and sisters here just opt to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
If you have been where I have been you wouldnt think that.
I would suggest to anyone that thinks they dont need more of God and ALL the gifts to take a little jog down to mexico and see the humanity.
After you come back to the USA a strange thing will happen. You will keep seeing those people in your mind hurting and suffering.
I have only been there twice. But my mission friend goes a lot and he needs much encouragement when he gets back.
My point is .....Dont worry about "tongues" just go get your hands dirty and help anyway. I know when I went I sure wished I had more power.
To me the Baptism and tongues is only a starting place
But what do i know?
Has anyone besides me ever looked hard at the verse that goes something like this....The whole earth travails that the sons of God would take their rightfull plaace.
DO THE ROCKS CRY OUT LOUDER THAN US?
Who do we think we are if not the extension of Gods hand?
We dont even pray right for the sick. we dont raise the dead.
We can barely cast out demons.
we misquote scripture as if being somekind of berrean is so so noble.
Do you think those people in mexico care if you are 100% doctrinally correct?
I say go and make your mistaakes .we are always going to make mistakes.
Do you think a mistake stoppes Gods power? I have seen the "biggest" miracles come from my screwups.
I think I am preaching to myself....and not you guys
| 2007/9/27 16:46||Profile|
Psalms 1, what a wonderful testimony!!
Psalms 1 said:
Do you think those people in mexico care if you are 100% doctrinally correct?
Their souls are more important then their stomach's I believe....yes, Correct Doctrine IS important, as we see many cults also going to feed the poor to gain followers. Refer to John 6 for more instruction on this subject.
End of Edit
Jesus said, Abide in me, and I in you, as you can do nothing without me.
It is impossible to do the work of the Ministry with out the Gifts operating through the power of the Holy Spirit. ALL the Gifts working together to bring balance to the Body of Christ are so important. We are to accept one anothers Gift, and despise no ones Gift what ever that Gift may be.
I've spent some time in Mexico and know what you mean. Families living on the sidewalk with nothing but the mercy of those who will feed them and their children....humbly accepting.
Once I was on a business trip to Acapulco and we stayed at the Royal Princess, advised to go to the beach area at your own risk, because of all the families BEGGING you to buy the jewelry they sell to make a living.
We did go, and yes they do beg you to buy. But along the beach was a few huts built where some had shops to work out of. It was on Mothers Day. That is a National Holiday in Mexico where all the children are off from school. This adorable little boy took me by the hand and said, come in our store...so I went.
He then asked, "Do you have something I can give my Mother for Mothers Day"? I don't have a present for her. So we sat down on the step going into his parents tiny shop...the size of a pantry closet, and I emptied out my purse to see what I could find. His father was standing by watching. With me I had brought a Book, "Seeing Christ in the Tabernacle". ...the Father couldn't speak English but about a couple words, spotted the Book, and his eyes lit up like I can't even Describe, and all he could say in a questioning way was Jesus? Jesus? Pointing to the Book. I said Yes, Jesus, do you want this Book, and he said yes. The Little boy jumps up and says, Oh this will be the present for Mom for Mothers Day, and he was so excited jumping up and down.
I will never forget that experience, because I didn't plan it...it had been planned before hand.
Psalms 1, thank you for putting here our real mission and purpose here on earth. To be the Lords Hands and feet.
With Love in Christ
| 2007/9/27 19:05|
Thank you David for that sobering message. When it comes down to what your saying about poverty in Mexico or wherever, telling them about doctrine is like trying to hold water in your hands. People's needs need to be met in order for them to receive anything that you have say to them. I am grateful that some of you have gone to the foreign fields to witness their dire straits. Your able to see the extraordinary poverty that exists in these places. And I can only imagine that in your own hearts and minds as you stand there looking on, that you want to give so much of yourselves but you can't. The need is great but so few want to go there.
The issue of tongues is not a huge issue with me. I say it like it is, and that may come off as if I dwell on this subject day in and day out. I tell you the truth I do not. My interest is to KNOW HIM and the power of His resurrection. To be prepared for a greater work to reach the hungry and dying. To be willing vessels that Christ can express Himself thru us.
However, if someone asks me concerning the receiving of the Holy Spirit, I will refer to them the book of Acts and let them read it and then tell me how they see the receiving of the holy Spirit.
Quote:A good example of this is Peter.
I say go and make your mistakes, we are always going to make mistakes.
I loved your message David, thanks for sharing it Brother.
| 2007/9/27 20:45|