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 Re: Is speaking in tongues ...


Compliments asked

Quote:
If someone said that they were filled with the holy Spirit but did not speak in tongues or prophesied, and you know by the bible that those who did receive the holy Spirit spoke in tongues and prophesied should we believe him?

Yes or No?

Hold on a tick, please! Are you really telling me that you go only by the outward sign of the other person speaking in tongues for [i]all[/i] your [u]evidence[/u] of their baptism in the Spirit, but don't expect the Spirit to witness directly to your spirit at the same time?

If so, I can, for the first time [b]ever[/b] just about begin to understand why there is such a fuss made by some people (not saying you personally have made a fuss here... don't know if you did or are...) over speaking in tongues as a 'sign' of the inward baptism.

If I'm not making sense yet, please bear with me.

What I have been assuming is (and I think I'm not alone in this view) that a person who has received the Holy Spirit, has the witness in himself, as John puts it (1:5:10) and also, accepts John's other observations here,

1 John 2:20
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him


knows that all these play a part in discerning what is going on - anytime... not just over speaking in tongues and prophecy.

These are not about an individualistic isolationist membership of one, but attibutes of those born from above, who are thus enabled by the Holy Spirit to recognise one another in the same way as they also recognise the voice of the Shepherd. Thus, if a person is [i]not[/i] speaking in tongues, their prophecy may be plainly of God by its content as much as its 'voice'. And, the same may be said of one who [i]is[/i] speaking in tongues, that the Holy Spirit bears witness to them or not.

If you've never thought of it this way (or even if you have) please explain why this is not enough agreement amongst brethren, to suffice?

 2007/9/26 18:36









 Re:

Hi Linn, No I am talking about the initial evidence, the moment the holy Spirit comes in to you. I am not talking about afterwards. I am not saying that you need to convince people that you got the holy Spirit by giving a demonstration of speaking in tongues, not at all. I am simply conveying what the examples given in the book of Acts that those who had received the holy Spirit spoke in tongues or prophesied at that moment.

There is a false teaching circulating in Christendom that when you receive Christ into your heart, you have the holy Spirit. According to the Samaritan account the holy Spirit didn't show up until Peter and John came down to lay hands on them so that they might receive the holy Spirit. They only believed the gospel and were baptized in water. You would think that would be ok, but in the early Church it was not so. Even Paul wanted to know from the disciples from Ephesus if they had received the holy Spirit since [after]they believed. [emphasis mine].

I am not sure what the name of this false teaching is, I have heard someone call it, "Holy Spirit within, Holy Spirit without" doctrine.

 2007/9/26 23:07
Search_Me
Member



Joined: 2007/7/24
Posts: 42


 Re:

Quote:

Compliments wrote:

There is a false teaching circulating in Christendom that when you receive Christ into your heart, you have the holy Spirit. According to the Samaritan account the holy Spirit didn't show up until Peter and John came down to lay hands on them so that they might receive the holy Spirit.




You receive the [b]Indwelling[/b] of the Holy Spirit immediately at conversion (John 20:22) and then the [b]Filling[/b] after conversion (Acts 2).


_________________
Ryan

 2007/9/26 23:52Profile









 Re: Is speaking in tongues ....


Compliments said

Quote:
I have heard someone call it, "Holy Spirit within, Holy Spirit without" doctrine.

Hi bro,

Right. So you are saying that
[color=000099]whatever it was that Paul was calling 'receiving the Holy Spirit', amounts to a pentecostal experience which leads to speaking in tongues as initial evidence of this baptism. [/color]

Please concur with or adjust that statement in blue if it's not exactly what you meant. Thanks. :-)


Now, with regard to your statement which I quoted, I have questions, centred around the pictures we have in the Old Testament (under the Old Covenant) which are fulfilled spiritually under the new.

In the verses I quoted from John, 'unction' and 'anointing' have an oily association historically in scripture, which is an externalised picture of the Holy Spirit. So my main question is whether you have [i]ever[/i] lain back and contemplated how the instructions God gave in the Old Covenant might be re-interpreted by the New, so as to give us meaningful explanations of all those pictures.

Even that God withdrew His authority from king Saul when he was disobedient, tells us things, yet David continued to respect Saul's formal status. The years of Jesus' ministry also offer much food for thought, as He had dedicated followers who had abandoned everything, before there was a cross for them to take up or a Holy Spirit to receive.... See what I mean?


A short section in the [u]book by GW North[/u] MikeB posted, (Articles and Sermons: A most important work - [u]The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit in Romans[/u]) is relevant for this discussion also.

I don't have the ability to copy and paste across to here, the section which begins on p8 called '[b]Grace and Apostleship from the Risen Christ[/b]', so [i]please[/i] read it and consider the possibility of some parallels with the 'believers' in Samaria and Ephesus?

Now to be honest, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I'm uncomfortable with the bondage which insisting on tongues can bring people into. You hear of men who have fasted for months, or nearly committed suicide because they couldn't conform to this experience. :-?

It is God who baptises... by His will we were born-again.


I recommend you read from the beginning of the book to pick up the introduction which leads to that section. If this means you can't reply till next week, it will be worth the wait, because I believe you may need a little time to chew on new thoughts. Looking forward to an interesting further discussion though... 8-)

 2007/9/27 8:25









 Re:

Quote:
Hold on a tick, please! Are you really telling me that you go only by the outward sign of the other person speaking in tongues for all your evidence of their baptism in the Spirit, but don't expect the Spirit to witness directly to your spirit at the same time?

What I have been assuming is (and I think I'm not alone in this view) that a person who has received the Holy Spirit, has the witness in himself, as John puts it (1:5:10) and also, accepts John's other observations here,



AMEN Dorcus!!!!!!!

You just made my day, and thank you for that wonderful insight in 1st John.

Actually the Book of 1st John is so totally awesome concerning those IN Christ.

I also love the verse.

The Water, Blood and Spirit are ONE.

The Water is the Word, we are washed by the Water of the Word," Sanctify them in the Truth THY WORD is Truth, and we are Cleansed from our sin by the Blood of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit bears witness to both the WORD and the Blood.


Quote:
1 John 2:27

THIS is the witness But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him
we have:




AMEN Again, and Again!!!

We Abide IN Christ and His Word, Jesus said in John 6, "Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life". Those who do are those who abide in Christ.

Thank you Dorcas for bringing out some very important Truths concerning our anointing, also testifying we are sealed in the Holy Spirit until the Day of Redemption.. This IS our Baptism into Christ, into His Body.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did


:-)

 2007/9/27 8:51









 Re:

I will consider reading GW North's exposition on the Holy Spirit but first I would like to know if he is trying to explain away the speaking in tongues or is he one that has not received the holy Spirit. I find reading from writers who are writing about a subject they had not experienced is like reading the local newspaper, a lot of knowledge but no spiritual essence.

Tell me that I am wrong. :-(

Linn, can you give me the link, I have searched page after page for MikeB's article and can't find it. :cry:

 2007/9/27 9:01









 Re:

Quote:
Do you see that(Saul) Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit? Do you see that he prophesied? Is preaching that Jesus Christ IS the Son of God preaching or prophesying?

Quote:
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

 2007/9/27 9:04









 Re:

Quote:
Do you see that(Saul) Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit? Do you see that he prophesied? Is preaching that Jesus Christ IS the Son of God preaching or prophesying?




Compliments, you have insisted that at the moment one receives the Holy Spirit they MUST either give evidence by speaking in tongues or prophesy.

I gave you documented evidence of Paul's initial receiving the Holy Spirit that does not say he did either.

You are changing the subject to another issue.

Are you referring to the initial receiving of the Holy Spirit or not?????

If we can stick to your initial comment then we can work from there to something else.

If Paul is saying Tongues are one of the Gifts, and not all have the gift of tongues, then why do you question the authority of Scripture.

Paul received the Holy Spirit and IMMEDIATELY confessed Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

He didn't immediately confess that all who receive the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues as you seem to be saying.

It is this kind of teaching that has divided teh Church and Christians, and has HURT many baby Christians.

Our Moderator says we are to walk in Love, yet this teaching is not the Spirit of LOVE, but division and contention.

Please except that FACT from the Authority of Scripture, and not men trying to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Their works have yet to be tried at the Judgement seat of Christ.

The ONLY dogmatic Doctrine anyone should have in Christianity is that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, DIED and rose again, for the Forgivness of Sin, and opened the way into the Holy of Holies that WE may have a personal and intimate relationship with GOD, our Father...Abba Father.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did:-)

 2007/9/27 9:33









 Re:

Quote:
You are changing the subject to another issue.

Katy, you have done this throughout this thread. I have asked you pointed questions and you jumped on other issues that had nothing to do with the questions. I see no reason why I should bother with answering yours.

I am going to take a cue from Brother PaulWest in saying my dialogue with you has ended for this thread. We circled the globe so to speak and have come back the same as we went, nothing has changed.

God Bless you Sister Katy :-)

 2007/9/27 9:48
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Katy-did, hi and God bless,I dont think you apply what you say.You say a teaching "tongues" causes division?
I think if a man recieves the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues[like Paul] and some people kick this precious believer out of the church.......THIS causes division.
Have you heard of lester roloff?
He was probably the greatest baptist preacher that ever lived.He had some members of his congregation back in the 50's get the
baptism of the Holy Spirit in a tent meeting.They were afraid to tell him.they thought he would kick them out of his church. One of them mustered the courage to go tell Bro roloff he was moving his membership to a church that moved in the gifts. He braced himself for the "blast".
Bro roloff told him"son anything you get from God that makes you closer to God I will not stand in your way"
You see Roloff could SEE the change in the man.
Remember saul "scripturally" persecuted the church.
If you would see and not presume you would have a diff. attitude.

........David

 2007/9/27 10:05Profile





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