| Poster | Thread | IRONMAN
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: Only One Set of 144,000 ... | | Greetings Dear saints in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
bro Rahman
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i wrote you an e-mail awhile back when you posted something similar to sis Dorcas, asking you if you meant the Great Crowd as the second set of people (144,000) you mentioned and you never answered back ... i thought that odd, but decided not to pursue it ... Now i'm led to this thread and lo and behold you do actually think there are two sets of 144,000 ...
i apologize for not responding to that part of the email. i am indeed open to correction on this (and indeed all matters) coz Lord knows i'm not trying to be deceived in anywise.
it struck me as interesting that the 144000 in Rev 7 was called out of Israel and to me it seemed that they came out of Jewry.Perhaps Israel here is referring to the Collective of saints from all tribes/peoples of the earth rather than Israel?i hadn't thought of that. the following verse then speaks of the multitude in which each people/tribe is represented which is made up of all the saints and that's kinda what got me thinking the way i do on this. it seems as though the 144000 are from that multitude and that John says he heard the number to me makes me think the number to be literal rather than a representation of the multitude. Either way this 144000 follows our Lord.
Then the description of the 144000 in Rev 14 to me seemed quite different to that in Rev 7 in that certain things are said of this group which were not said of the group in Rev 7. so i did a quick browsing of a few commentaries. a couple of them allude to the 144000 as being just 1 group. one alluded to them being 2 different ones but some of them make no definitive statement of them being 1 or 2. anyhow i hadn't considered what you have said here that Rev 14 could be a more in depth description of the Rev 7 group and it may well be so.
i pray God it is made perfectly clear for us all.
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
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Farai Bamu
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|  2007/9/19 17:11 | Profile | IRONMAN
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: Martyrs & Top heavenly Rewards??? ...remember front and centre? | | bro Rahman Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
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under the headings: "No Special Rank or Priviledge for Losing Ones Head" & "Glorified Together With and In Our Jesus", at which point i thought we'd come to the conclusion that "martyrdom" especially in light of what Jesus said here
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i've been re-searching scripture again before i posted this and still can't find any verses to sustain what you and bro David subscribe to ... All i keep getting is this one of a general co-ruling and co-reigning as joint-heirs ...
yes indeed of this we can be sure. i was thinking more in terms of the rule of 1000 yrs per rev 20 which seems to list a hierarchy/rank and file. Yes we will all rule but as we so do from the spaces vacated by the fallen angels, there is a rank and file there.world governments have hierarchy because there is hierarchy in the Heavenly Government. There are the Cherubs which are the chief angels, then seraphs and so forth each with differing responsibilities and so on. With the fallen angels though that brings with it strife and envy and wrangling but for the Saints it is not so. we know also that each man will be rewarded according to his/her works so the more works which are done, the bigger the reward. from 1 Corinthians 3:
[b]7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, F8 ye are God's building. [/b]
so it's not that anyone better in all this but if one saint works harder, he is rewarded more according to his/her labour. it's like we said, if God has in mind for you to be front and centre, press to do the work that'll get you front and centre, that is yield all the more to Him that He can work that out since it's Him who gives the increase.
so yes we are co-rulers and joint-heirs but the responsibilities of the Kingdom are varied. John wasn't martyred but he was of the original 12, that to me means he has special rank. Paul wasn't of the original 12 but God worked through him mightily and so part of his reward is that his name is on one of the foundation levels of New Jerusalem along with the other 11.
one of the things which kinda made it hard for me to get this is that on earth and as men we tend to deal treacherously with those beneath us and in my mind i feared that sort of thing in the Millenial Kingdom and jealousy at the handing out of rewards. yet it is not so with the saints...that seems abstract when the only reality is the opposite...also on earth if we work hard and the person next to us slacks off, we may get paid the same and that may lead some of us to work a little less...maybe that may have more influence on our view of rewards in heaven than we think? something to consider?
John the baptist may be less than the least of the people in Heaven but it's not going to be of any consequence to anyone because nobody is going to think any less of him though they may be greater. that for sure is a hard thing to live by on this side...
i hope that makes some sense bro
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
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Farai Bamu
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| | 2007/9/19 17:37 | Profile | Rahman
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Posts: 1374
| | Remember: It won't Matter When We Get There ... | |
Bro Ironman you wrote;
"i hope that makes some sense bro ..."
--- Not really bro :-D , because my specific question is "where can you and brother Dave show me from scripture that "martyrs" recieve the top rewards in heaven? ...
Yes i know that we'll ALL be rewarded, and recieve all kinds of crowns, stones, etc. ... But isn't that God's call, since He's not given us any clue as to who gets what in this area other than we who overcomes? ... For instance is an imprisoned "martyr" who our Lord may have brought few to Himself thru more worthy of more rewards in heaven just because they we're called to martyrdom, than say an "evangelist" who our Lord used to bring tens of thousands to Himself but lived long and died of old age? ---
Bro Ironman you wrote;
"so it's not that anyone better in all this but if one saint works harder, he is rewarded more according to his/her labour. it's like we said, if God has in mind for you to be front and centre, press to do the work that'll get you front and centre, that is yield all the more to Him that He can work that out since it's Him who gives the increase. "
---Amen, precisely, it's Him who gives the increase, so to me that's God's call, when we get there, as to where we'll stand around His throne, what mansion we'll get, and what rewards [color=FF0000](but also remember that i said i don't think if one was in the 1 millionth row away from God - where we were in His presence wouldn't matter just as long as we're there)[/color], but in the meanwhile i think it's dangerous to make statements that certain folk WILL GET certain things, specifically martyrs, and even more specifically (since you've already made this public) if one believes one has been called to martyrdom when such a specific reward structure can't be found in scripture ... In doing so that brings to mind, at least to my mind, that there is another agenda, like an attempt to make your self feel much better about such a percieved calling ... If i'm wrong then i apologize up front, but i thought that initially over on the other thread about the conclusions you'd come to about special rewards for those beheaded ... Somehow even if that was the case and you knew it for sure that such greater rewards we're due, it doesn't seem like Christ to trot 'em out amongst the other saints ... [color=FF0000]i think it's alway better/safer to remember "the first shall be last, and the last first" and always think oneself in the kingdom as "last" ... i'm always reminded of how Christ said not to sit ourselves at the head of the Masters table and then have to be embarrassed by our being told to move to a lesser seat, but to go sit as far back as one can and then feel the joy of the Master bidding one to come on up front ... i think that was the main point Christ was making about John the Baptist, and also when He hired all the workers for the same pay whether we began at the beginning of the day, or at the very end ...[/color]
i praise God that i don't percieve a call to "martyrdom" as yourself, He knows what i can bear and as of yet He hasn't placed such on me ... But of someone like yourself, i do believe there can be a real danger in attempting to make one self feel better, superior even, in what i'm sure He'd just call your reasonable service ... As i said, if i'm wrong please forgive me, and i apologize up front, but knowing you your new line of thinking makes me wonder ...
Also as regards the 144,000 ... i know as you've said you've been thinking on some deep things/scriptures, but i noticed that you stated what you thought about there being two sets of 144,000 as more of a statement, than a thoght, or an "i believe" ...
You wrote;
"actually, there are 2 groups of 144000 which are marked, some from the 12 tribes of Israel(Rev 7) and the other group from among men (rev 14)" ...
You know i'm a stickler for putting in "i believe" or "i think" on certain things, to keep other folk like myself from going, "Whhhhhh-at"??? ...
That's something i exclusively learned to do on SI ... :-D
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| | 2007/9/19 18:42 | Profile | Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374
| | Something To Concider ... | |
[b]Bro Ironman you wrote;[/b]
"one of the things which kinda made it hard for me to get this is that on earth and as men we tend to deal treacherously with those beneath us and in my mind i feared that sort of thing in the Millenial Kingdom and jealousy at the handing out of rewards. yet it is not so with the saints...that seems abstract when the only reality is the opposite...also on earth if we work hard and the person next to us slacks off, we may get paid the same and that may lead some of us to work a little less...maybe that may have more influence on our view of rewards in heaven than we think? [b]something to consider?"[/b]
--- Amen ... On earth we're like Linus' little sister on the Charlie Brown Christmas special, "I only want what's coming to me, I only want my fair share" ... :-P
You and i have talked about "storing up treasures in heaven", and that "we'd like to do all down here for Christ in attaining all that He wants us to have up there" ... But i get concerned when any kind of recieving of rewards gets attached to our output of love (work) towards Him ... My way of thinking might be way to pointed on this subject, but to me it's only what one does for Christ that will last, and it's Christ who judges what's precious and dross, and rewards accordingly ... Christ said that the two greatest commandments of all are "To love God with our ALL, and to love our neighbor as ourselves" ... [color=FF0000]i think any other motivational attachments, even the pursuit of heavenly rewards, to the pure motivation of doing all that we do for God out of love alone, and subsequently to the benefit of our fellow saint/man, adulterates that pure motivation and taints our energy with that little dab of leaven called "self" ...[/color]
Love for God to me is the only pure motivator that will not allow a saint to slack, and will bring all that Christ has in store for us in the heavenlies---
[b]Bro Ironman you wrote;[/b]
"John the baptist may be less than the least of the people in Heaven but it's not going to be of any consequence to anyone because nobody is going to think any less of him though they may be greater. that for sure is a hard thing to live by on this side..."
--- Amen ... It's easy to imagine (ego trip just a tad) one standing around the throne of God in a front row position, all loaded down with heavenly rewards, fat heavenly mansion, shining ... But again, up there, where there will be no envy, jealousy, strife, or contention, nobody's gonna care what we've got (like we can selfishly imagine it down here on earth) - including ourselves, all standing in the all encompassing presence and glory of God ...
Man what a blessing it will be to be finally free of that type satanically inspired self awareness! :-D ---
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| | 2007/9/20 7:59 | Profile | psalm1
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Posts: 1230
| | Re: Something To Concider ... | | rahman, I could be wrong about saying" the absulute to reward"do you agree they recieve reward? To what degree do you place thst........Just asking.... Thanks, David |
| | 2007/9/20 8:51 | Profile | psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230
| | Re: Something To Concider ... | | Rahmman, I was refering to hebrews where it says " and some refused freedom that they might obtain a better resurrection" I believe this is chapt. 11 But it is somewhere in heb. It is so moving to read heb 11. It talks about all the marters. And you , I am sure, will see the marters in a diff. light.
It also says" That they without us should not be made perfect"
That is so awesome to me
....David |
| | 2007/9/20 9:10 | Profile | psalm1
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Posts: 1230
| | Re: | | Ironman, how are you? I have a question.If the rapture is post trib.How is it that the dead are raptured first and then those that are alive. But we see the marters in heaven during the trib. period? If it is a post trib. rapture Then the marters would be asleep with the others.
I just noticed this.
The whole of scripture is needed in my possition I take. Is it not?
Also the 10 virgins and the bride groom fit absolutely perfect with the pre trib. position.
What you point out as delay is simply what we are now in . We can all say his delay is what we are experiencing.
Thanks, David |
| | 2007/9/20 9:26 | Profile | Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374
| | Re: Something To Concider ... | |
Psalms 1 you wrote;
"rahman, I could be wrong about saying" the absolute reward" do you agree they recieve reward? To what degree do you place this........Just asking.... Thanks, David"
--- Bro Dave ...
Yes i certainly agree the martyrs get rewards ... All of us get rewards who according to Rev. 2 & 3 are "overcoming" and "repenting" ... My point is that there are no scriptures that say martyrs get "the top, or absolute" reward, or for that matter even any special type award for this type death ...
i'm really kinda wary of focusing on any added spiritual rewards, earthly or heavenly, past my ultimate award of being saved (pre-destined and called) ... I subscribe that "salvation" to me, if God doesn't do another blessed thing for me, is "grace sufficient" that i will not spend an eternity in hell ... My motivation to do/live for God, thru Christ Jesus, stems from this "first" love, also the fact that He's faithful to me even when i haven't been to Him in my walk, and so that love increases ever the more as my understanding and appreciation of the brevity of being one of His chosen impact me ... It's His "now" love for me, His "then" choice of me before the setting of the foundation of the world, that keeps my fire alit back at Him when i want to quit, not what i might get when i get there ... Even in my wildest imagination (and i've got a vivid one) i can't grasp what my heavenly rewards will be, but down here i can fully grasp the meaning of the treasure of what my initial, and undeserved, award of "salvation" is ... That my ticket destination is stamped: HEAVEN! (Where being in God's presence is the ultimate reward that everyone there gets a joint heirs share in) ...
Blessings in Christ Jesus who should be ALL the motivation we need :knockedout: ---
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| | 2007/9/20 10:25 | Profile | IRONMAN
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: Remember: It won't Matter When We Get There ... | | bro R
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
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Not really bro , because my specific question is "where can you and brother Dave show me from scripture that "martyrs" recieve the top rewards in heaven?
my initial statement about that was baseless as far as scripture is concerned and so i retract that and repent before you all and our Lord and ask forgiveness.
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Yes i know that we'll ALL be rewarded, and recieve all kinds of crowns, stones, etc. ... But isn't that God's call, since He's not given us any clue as to who gets what in this area other than we who overcomes? ... For instance is an imprisoned "martyr" who our Lord may have brought few to Himself thru more worthy of more rewards in heaven just because they we're called to martyrdom, than say an "evangelist" who our Lord used to bring tens of thousands to Himself but lived long and died of old age? ---
indeed it is God's call and i ran ahead of Him there.Forgive me brethren.
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Amen, precisely, it's Him who gives the increase, so to me that's God's call, when we get there, as to where we'll stand around His throne, what mansion we'll get, and what rewards (but also remember that i said i don't think if one was in the 1 millionth row away from God - where we were in His presence wouldn't matter just as long as we're there),
indeed that's the long and short, there will be no envy whether one has a large mansion or not. at the same time, if our Lord has in mind for us to have large mansions, we ought to shoot for that.
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but in the meanwhile i think it's dangerous to make statements that certain folk WILL GET certain things, specifically martyrs, and even more specifically (since you've already made this public) if one believes one has been called to martyrdom when such a specific reward structure can't be found in scripture ...
in my initial statement i blurred Rev 20 1-5 about the hierarchy of those who rule with Christ then with the rewards of those in Heaven.in those who Rule with Him in that 1000 yrs, there is a hierarchy and i don't think (any more) that it is maintained into the Kingdom. there are yet different rewards for work which He knows.
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In doing so that brings to mind, at least to my mind, that there is another agenda, like an attempt to make your self feel much better about such a percieved calling ... If i'm wrong then i apologize up front, but i thought that initially over on the other thread about the conclusions you'd come to about special rewards for those beheaded ... Somehow even if that was the case and you knew it for sure that such greater rewards we're due, it doesn't seem like Christ to trot 'em out amongst the other saints ...
indeed it may very well seem as though i have another agenda but really i'm seeking to testify to God's Grace shown me. if i had a choice bro, martyrdom would not be it but to have come from that to a point where i'm ok with it is really God's Grace at work, if there is anything for me to boast about, it is His Grace. however in zeal, there is always the danger of running ahead and for which the antedote is God working through brethren like yourself to keep our heads on straight if need be.
bro no apology needed, as bro Mike oft says of you, your heart comes through. it is i who ought to apologize for running ahead in this crucial hour.
as for the 144000, to me it seemed quite plain that there were 2 since the descriptions of them were different. i am reexamining that notion in light of what you said and if i'm wrong that i see rightly coz as you know, i'm not trying to be deceived in anywise. better to be proven wrong publically and set straight than any alternative. at the end of it all im striving to be right by God no matter the cost.
Grace and Peace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.
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Farai Bamu
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| | 2007/9/20 10:29 | Profile | IRONMAN
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: | | greetings bro David in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
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Ironman, how are you? I have a question.If the rapture is post trib.How is it that the dead are raptured first and then those that are alive.
because they are dead...when one dies he goes to heaven so those who die are the first ones to be transformed in that sense. Also the rapture is a gathering of all the saints dead and those which remain alive at Christ's return which are part of the first resurrection, this is why i believe it must be post trib because the tribulation saints are counted in that first resurrection.
yes we do see the martyrs of the trib and every martyr in Heaven at this time also but that brings out a very interesting Attribute of this book of Revelation and it's Author which it seems most people haven't picked up on or taken into account. The book of Revelation speaks of the great multitude in Rev 7 which is all the saints, past present and future. Also the martyrs are in Heaven already asking God for redress. Now the thing is we view time as linear, God isn't bound by that view because He is Omnipresent, so for Him, everything that we consider past present and future is before Him simultaneously so He sees every saints before Him in Heaven at a time when things are still going haywire on earth...He sees every martyr before Him asking for redress even though to us, their number isn't yet full. This explains why some things in that book sometimes look out of place to us because we're not looking at the book from God's point of view from which all things are before Him.
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If it is a post trib. rapture Then the marters would be asleep with the others.
that the dead are asleep speaks more to them being in a place/state where we can't communicate with them as we did here. However they have been transformed in Heaven already so that they rise first speaks more to them being manifested in their glorified bodies and being seen as alive.Then the ones who are alive are transformed and given their like bodies.
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Also the 10 virgins and the bride groom fit absolutely perfect with the pre trib. position.
ok, how? to me like i said earlier, it seems the expectation of most people is pre-trib which i believe is the time the virgins expected the Groom to come. They knew it was going to be a while but they expected Him say at 9.p.m. This is why some of them had oil enough to last about that long or a little longer but not the entire night if they had to. The expectation for a pre-trib rapture for some i belive leaves these saints ill-prepared for the possibility of suffering tremendously if need be, that is, not expecting the Groom to be late and thus not having enough oil for the long haul.
could you explain a little further your view?
but you haven't answered my question yet, curiously so, if you find yourself here in those days, what will you do? for me i'm preparing for both but as i read what Paul says in thessalonians, it seems it is post trib. the coming of our Lord, whether secret or not, Paul says of it that it will be AFTER the revelation of the man of sin who will sit himself in the temple for being worshipped. this is at the midpoint of the trib. Also the Revelation does say the return of Him will be at the end of the trib.
also if the return of Christ is secret, why did He never mention that there would be 2 comings...why did He say He prayed not for us to be taken out of the world but kept from the evil one?
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
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Farai Bamu
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| | 2007/9/20 11:03 | Profile |
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