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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is the Gospel?

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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707



Romans 11:27-36 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

By this in Christ: Galatians 2:14-21 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/9/18 2:25Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


There was a remnant chosen and set aside for Himself and one of them was Able, then by God Himself was the only way Able could. Able did not bow the knee to Baal, because He was chosen by God and set aside.

So then based on what you have said above, the OT saints also entered into the grace of God.

According to Scripture are these OT saints empowered by God to be both righteous and do righteous works?

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/18 22:55Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707



""So then based on what you have said above, the OT saints also entered into the grace of God.""

Yes, but without the birthing of Christ in them and they will still have to live on this earth with Christ as King, ruled by Christ on David's Throne. Old Testament Saints, earthly. Not New Testament Saints, Heavenly.

John 14:1-12 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

These works cannot be done by old testament saints. Only those that are in Christ, born again.

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/9/19 2:48Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707



""According to Scripture are these OT saints empowered by God to be both righteous and do righteous works?""

No. Only by God's merciful Grace will they be saved and be ruled by Christ on this earth in the millennium.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Isa 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, [He is] righteous? yea, [there is] none that sheweth, yea, [there is] none that declareth, yea, [there is] none that heareth your words.

Only God is Righteous and the Christ that is born again in us making us righteous by The Father birthing His Son in the Believer, "New Creatures" in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/9/19 2:55Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


Brother Phillip wrote:

No. Only by God's merciful Grace will they be saved and be ruled by Christ on this earth in the millennium.

Jesus testified of Abel...

Matt. 23:31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

John also writes according to the Holy Spirit that was in him...

1John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

So, according to Scripture, is your understanding based on Scripture or a man's doctrine?

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/19 4:29Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


Here is another testimony of one who know's righteousness...

Psa. 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way,
Who walk in the law of the LORD!
2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies,
Who seek Him with the whole heart!
3 They also do no iniquity;
They walk in His ways.
4 You have commanded us
To keep Your precepts diligently.
5 Oh, that my ways were directed
To keep Your statutes!
6 Then I would not be ashamed,
When I look into all Your commandments.
7 I will praise You with uprightness of heart,
When I learn Your righteous judgments.
8 I will keep Your statutes;
Oh, do not forsake me utterly!
9 How can a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed according to Your word.
10 With my whole heart I have sought You;
Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.
12 Blessed are You, O LORD!
Teach me Your statutes.
13 With my lips I have declared
All the judgments of Your mouth.
14 I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
As much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate on Your precepts,
And contemplate Your ways.
16 I will delight myself in Your statutes;
I will not forget Your word.
17 Deal bountifully with Your servant,
That I may live and keep Your word.
18 Open my eyes, that I may see
Wondrous things from Your law.
19 I am a stranger in the earth;
Do not hide Your commandments from me.
20 My soul breaks with longing
For Your judgments at all times.

This is another example of the power of the gospel found in Scripture...

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/19 4:34Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707



"So, according to Scripture, is your understanding based on Scripture or a man's doctrine?'

My Salvation is based on what Paul says, in the New Testament.

Ephesians 2:7-10 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 1:2-6 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Galatians 1:3-9 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

What is your salvation based upon? The works of the Law?

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/9/19 13:02Profile



If we are justified by faith, it should come as no surprise that the devil would attempt to redefine "faith." As this conference opens, I want to give an overview of our concerns. I am concerned that saving faith is being redefined in three major areas.

[b]1. Saving faith is a present tense faith.[/b]

The Greek verb occurs 248 times in the New Testament. Many references in the Gospels and Acts are a matter of historical record. I am particularly interested in 90 usages which state general commands or promises.(1)

In each of the six instances of the aeorist participle, the action of the participle occurs prior to the action of the main verb. In these instances they first believed and then received. However, none of these passages can be used to teach that a one-time act of faith is all that God requires.

There is one perfect participle used in Titus 3:8 andrefers to action which has come to be a state of being.

The present participle is used 48 times which denotes continuous action. This accounts for over half of all the usages we are considering.

[i]The Imperative Mood[/i]
The imperative mood occurs in only two tenses - present tense and aeorist tense. There is one aeorist infinitive construction in Hebrews 11:6 which has the force of an imperative, but it refers to the initial act of coming to God. The other six times the imperative is present continuous action.

[i]The Indicative Mood[/i]
The perfect tense indicates a past action with a continuing result. Certainly this emphasis is present in the five perfect indicatives which are used.

The present indicative is used six times and indicates continuous action.

However there are two aeorist indicatives found. The use of the aeorist in Gal 2:16 refers to the crisis act of faith necessary in order that we might be justified. However, this verse could not be interpreted as meaning a single act of faith would guarantee final salvation. 1 Cor 15:2 refers to those who believed in vain.

[i]The Subjunctive Mood[/i]
The subjunctive mood describes that which is potential. Often it carries the idea of "if." Mildred Wynkoop observed that the Greek subjunctive indicates not only possibility, but also condition. It stands between predestination and moral choices. It opens up possibility, but does not determine result. (2)

There are thirteen subjunctives and about an equal number of present subjunctives and aeorist subjunctives. All refer to contingent action. Present subjunctives refer to continuous action while aeorist subjunctives refer to a crisis act. None of the aeorist subjunctives indicate that a crisis act will insure eternal salvation, but that a crisis act is necessary to besaved.

While there are a few instances of commands which emphasize the crisis moment of faith, we can say that every stated promise of eternal life or eternal reward to those who believe is based on a present tense continuous faith.

It is ironic that the popular gospel teaching today proclaims that a sinner is free to choose or reject Christ, but once becoming a Christian he then loses the power of contrary choice. That momentary decision can never be reversed. This misconception is based upon a static and unscriptural understanding of faith. True faith is like breathing; we have to keep on.

Joseph Benson, an early Methodist commentator, preached on the text from 2 Peter 3:17-18, "Beware, lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in grace." The title of his message says it all, "Growth in Grace the Only Security Against Falling From It." (3)

[b]2. Saving faith produces good works.[/b]

James tells us that the demons have an intellectual faith. They believe that there is one God, yet this knowledge has not converted them. Therefore, James concludes that faith which does not produce works is a dead faith (2:18-26). There is a difference between a "decision for Christ" and saving faith; true faith includes repentance.

As we live by faith Romans 1:17 also teaches that we grow in faith. Saving faith produces the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23). Those who are born again do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Rom 8:4).

However, if faith is reduced to a momentary decision and our theology teaches that once having made that decision we can never perish, what will we do with those who have made a profession of faith but exhibit no fruit?

Lewis Sperry Chafer wrote that a believer could be a new creation and yet remain a carnal Christian without any change in character. He stated that the carnal Christian is also characterized by a walk that is on the same plane as that of the natural man. (4)

When Chafer's book He That Is Spiritual was first published in 1918 it was extremely controversial. John MacArthur wrote, "Prior to this century, no serious theologian would have entertained the notion that it is possible to be saved yet see nothing of the outworking of regeneration in one's life-style or behavior." MacArthur went on to say that Chafer's concept of two classes of Christians, carnal and spiritual, "was a foreign concept to most Christians in Dr. Chafer's generation, but it has become a central premise for a large segment of the church today." It "became the basis for a whole new way of looking at the gospel." (5)

Modern dispensationalists have carried their doctrine of the carnal Christian to such absurdities as claiming that you can't tell a carnal believer from a lost man because they both act the same way. This explains how Christians can steal, lie, commit adultery or suicide and still go to heaven. It has even been taught that a carnal Christian can fall away from the faith, cease believing, and still be eternally secure.(6) John MacArthur also documents the teaching of some that believers out of fellowship may be "unbelieving believers," even agnostics or atheists, yet even those who deny God are still eternally secure. (7)

Yet Romans 6 asserts that justification and initial sanctification are bound together and we cannot have the one without having the other. Randall Gleason wrote that Chafer over emphasized the discontinuity between justification and sanctification and underestimated the transforming power of regeneration. "To imagine that a person can be justified without any change for the better in his condition demonstrates a deficient view of both justification and sanctification." (8)

The term "old man" occurs three times in Paul's writings. In Romans 6:6 Paul states that our old man was crucified with Christ. Colossians 3:9 declares that believers have put off their old way of life. Ephesians 4:22 is an imperative for Christians to put it off. (9) It is both an inconsistency to teach that one can become born again without any change and an inconsistency to teach that a believer can switch back and forth between the old lifestyle and the new.

Anthony Hoekema said the basic problem with the two natures position, as stated by John Walvoord, was that

he fails to do full justice to the fact that a decisive break with sin was brought about by Christ for believers - so that sin, though still present in the believer, no longer has dominion - and to the amazing truth that the believer is now indeed, a new creature, old things having passed away. . . . He gives the impression that the Christian is something like a spiritual seesaw with two contradictory types of inner tendencies. With both tugging at one's heart, a believer can go either way. (10)

Therefore, we have today people who are making a momentary decision for Christ, who produce no evidence of salvation and yet are told daily by radio preachers that they cannot lose this salvation. But there are no unconditional covenants in Scripture.(11) While certain verses taken out of context may appear to offer unconditional security, they must be reconciled with the many conditions stated. (12)

Furthermore, every passage which describes the final judgment states that we will be judged in that day on the basis of our works.(13) It is ironic that the sinner is held morally responsible to obey God, but when he becomes a Christian faithfulness is not required. The Christian, according to popular teaching, is judged at a lower standard.

[b]3. Saving faith brings assurance.[/b]

The third deficiency in the false faith promoted today is that it produces no divine assurance. According to Hebrews 11:1, true faith produces assurance or confidence. This word hupostasis was found in papyri sources to denote a title deed. (14) William Lane translates this opening phrase in Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith celebrates the objective reality of the blessings for which we hope." (15)

Faith is also the evidence or proof of things not seen. John Wesley preached that

faith is a divine evidence and conviction, not only that 'God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,' but also that Christ 'loved me and gave himself for me.' . . . . And it is certain this faith necessarily implies an assurance . . .that 'Christ loved me, and gave himself for me.' For 'he that believeth' with the true, living faith 'hath the witness in himself.' The Spirit witnesseth with his spirit that he is a child of God. Because he is a son, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into his heart, crying, Abba, Father; giving him an assurance that he is so, and a childlike confidence in him. (16)

A false faith produces no assurance. However, the Holy Spirit still convicts of sin (John 16:8). This conviction creates anxiety and secular psychology complains that religion upsets people.

Recently a psychiatrist told a woman who had attended our services that she was too religious. She was so upset by his advice that she quit him and started back to church. The Lord has helped her greatly.

But the "carnal Christian" should be upset. Ten percent of the total Christian population is sexually addicted. (17) The "carnal Christian" should be anxious because the Scripture teaches that sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatryand witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like are acts of the sinful nature and those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal 5:19-21).

So, the Holy Spirit convicts, but He is not bringing assurance to the "carnal Christian." The right kind of preaching would produce more conviction! The popular preachers teach a false assurance based on their rationalistic doctrine of "once saved, always saved." They teach I can have it and not feel it, but I can never lose it if I ever get it! I would rather know that I am saved and yet know that salvation could be forfeited than to be talked into a profession that I did not possess, but told I could not lose.

While the Holy Spirit convicts the nominal Christian that they are not ready to meet God, these preachers misapply the Word of God by teaching a false security while the Holy Spirit calls for surrender. Yet the logic of their teaching cannot compete with the gentle whisper of the Holy Spirit. The mind of the nominal Christian may accept the logic of the smooth teacher, but in his heart he knows something is not right.

Let me offer some sound psychological advice. Quit trying to justify what God's Word condemns. Agree with the voice of the Holy Spirit and surrender to the lordship of Christ. God will then enable you to believe and when you trust in Christ with all your heart, He will come through His Spirit and make a new person out of you. You will know that you are truly saved because the Holy Spirit will bring peace and because you see the indirect evidence of a changed life.

But some might object that this Wesleyan-Arminian emphasis is conditional. This salvation may be forfeited. Apostasy is a real possibility. They often scoff that we have no assurance. They caricature us as believing that "every other day with Jesus is sweeter than the day before." That we have be born again and again and again. On the other hand, they are eternally secure.

I am arguing that we offer more actual security than they do. John Wesley did preach that salvation is conditional. But he also preached

that the Spirit of God does give a believer such a testimony of his adoption that while it is present to the soul he can no more doubt the reality of his sonship than he can doubt of the shining of the sun while he stands full blaze of his beams. (18)

A present tense faith produces a present tense assurance.


We protest this false faith which does not require any commitment or obedience beyond an initial decision. It is a dead faith which produces no spiritual fruit and brings no divine assurance. If a church member exercises no faith, gives no evidence of having been saved, and has no supernatural assurance that he is saved - it should be obvious that he is not saved!

Before the modern teaching of the dispensationalists confused the issue, in little towns and villages acrossthis nation there was a time when the Baptists had revival and the Methodists would join them. When the Methodists had their camp meeting the Baptists came. If the Presbyterians scheduled a protracted meeting, the other denominations came to fellowship. But if a seeker came forward, it did not matter which denominational he preferred, it was expected that when he really got saved there would be a change in his life. Yes, there were differences between the denominations. They had different traditions and there were variations in their rituals of worship, but they all believed that salvation did something for a man. If a man or woman professed to get religion and their life did not change, it was generally agreed that the religion did not "take."

We preach a free gospel for all men and a full gospel from all sin. It is based upon a present tense faith which produces good works and brings assurance. We believe that if we keep ourselves in the love of God he is able to keep us from falling (Jude 21-24) and that he will appear a second time to bring final salvation to those who are believing (Heb 9:28). This is the faith which saves.


Mark 1:15 repent and believe - present active imperative
John 1:7 aeorist active subjunctive
1:12 present active participle
3:15-16 present active participles
18 twice present active participles; last occurrence perfect active indicative
36 present active participle
5:24 present active participle
6:29 present active subjunctive
35 present active participle
40 present active participle
47 present active participle
7:38 present active participle
39 aeorist active participle - those who believed would receive the Spirit
8:24 aeorist active subjunctive
10:38 present active subjunctive
11:25 present active participle
26 present active participle; present active indicative
42 aeorist active subjunctive
12:36 present active imperative
44 present active participle
46 present active participle
13:19 present active subjunctive
14:1 both present active imperatives (first could be indicative)
11 both present active imperatives
12 present active participle
29 aeorist active subjunctive
16:27 perfect active indicative
31 present active indicative
17:20 present active participle
21 present active subjunctive
19:35 present active subjunctive 20:29 perfect active indicative; aeorist active participle - not yet seeing, yet believed prior to sight
31 present active subjunctive; present active participle
Acts 10:43 present active participle
13:39 present active participle
16:31 aeorist active imperative
19:4 aeorist active subjunctive
Rom 1:16 present active participle
3:22 present active participle
4:5 present active participle
11 present active participle
10:4 present active participle
9 aeorist active subjunctive
10 present passive indicative
11 present active participle
15:13 present active infinitive - the use of the article makes it function as a participle
1 Cor 1:21 present active participle
13:6 present active indicative
14:22 both present active participles
15:2 aeorist active indicative - in vain
Gal 2:16 aeorist active indicative
3:22 present active participle
Eph 1:13 aeorist active participle - the faith was prior to the sealing
19 present active participle
Phil 1:29 present active infinitive - with article; functions as a participle
1 Thess 2:10 present active participle
13 present active participle
4:14 present active indicative
2 Thess 1:10 aeorist active participle - believed prior to a future event
2:12 aeorist active participle - believed prior to a future event
1 Tim 1:16 present active infinitive - with article functions as a participle
2 Tim 1:12 perfective active indicative
Titus 3:8 perfect active participle
Heb 4:3 aeorist active participle - believed prior to entering rest
11:6 aeorist infinitive - the force of an imperative
James 2:19 both present active indicatives
1 Peter 1:8 present active participle
21 present active participle
2:6 present active participle
7 present active participle
1 John 3:23 aeorist active subjunctive - a crisis act
4:16 perfect active indicative
5:1 present active participle
5 present active participle
10 first two - present active participles; perfect active indicative
13 present active participle


All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine (2 Tim 3:16). Some Scriptures apparently teach unconditional eternal security; other Scriptures seem to deny that our security is unconditional. God has not contradicted himself. Our doctrine of assurance must take seriously both columns of texts. These passages, taken from the NIV, should be studied within their context.

Both positions have a doctrine of assurance. The unconditional position teaches that once we are saved we can never lose salvation, but relies on a logical deduction from Scripture to assure us of when we received that salvation.

The conditional position teaches that we have divine assurance through the Holy Spirit that we have been saved, but that we can be sure of salvation only as we continue to be assured by the Spirit. Deliberate sin which remains unconfessed grieves the Holy Spirit, resulting in a loss of assurance and jeopardizing the salvation covenant.

[b]Passages apparently teaching conditional security[/b]

Ezek 18:24 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered . . . he will die (see also v 26; 33:12-18).

John 8:31 If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples; 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is . . . thrown into the fire and burned.

1 Cor 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, your have believed in vain.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course, you fail the test?

Gal 5:4 You have fallen away from grace.

Col 1:23 If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel; 2:19 He has lost connection with the Head.

1 Tim 4:1 Some will abandon the faith, vv 15-16 Be diligent . . . watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. 2 Tim 2:12 If we endure we will also reign with him; v 18 They destroy the faith of some.

Heb 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance while to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.

Heb 10:26-29 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 12:15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God.

James 5:19-20 If one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 1:10-11 Be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall; 2:20-22 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Rev 2:5,7 You have forsaken your first love. . . . If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand.

Rev 2:11 He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. 3:5 He who overcomes . . . I will never blot out his name from the book of life.

[b]Passages apparently teaching unconditional security[/b]

John 5:24 Whoever believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life

John 6:35-40 He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. . . . All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. . . . And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me. . . . For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:28-29 I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

John 17:11-15 Protect them by the power of your name . . . While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. . . . Protect them from the evil one.

Rom 5:8-9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him.

Rom 8:38-39 Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:29 God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

1 Cor 1:8-9 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

Eph 1:13 Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession. 4:30 The Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 Thess 3:3-4 The Lord is faithful and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

1 Peter 1:3-5 He has given us . . . an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade - kept in heaven for you who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 1 To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ. v 24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy.

(By Dr. Vic Reasoner)

 2007/9/19 14:16

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


What is your salvation based upon? The works of the Law?

By the hearing of the word of God and then acting upon what I hear.

Brother, do you see that Scripture testifies that God enabled men in the OT like Abel to both know Him, His righteousness, and then do what He asked them to do?

Do you believe Abel was righteous?

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/20 0:38Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


Modern dispensationalists have carried their doctrine of the carnal Christian to such absurdities as claiming that you can't tell a carnal believer from a lost man because they both act the same way. This explains how Christians can steal, lie, commit adultery or suicide and still go to heaven. It has even been taught that a carnal Christian can fall away from the faith, cease believing, and still be eternally secure.

Jesus taught this idea in this way...

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Jesus taught that a 'slave of sin" does not abide in the house forever. Listen to the condition that Jesus places before those whom He taught that day...

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

We all come to God, still ravaged by our sinful past. Jesus conditionally promises 'If" you abide in My shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." The word of God is able to free those who are slaves of sin.

While the Holy Spirit convicts the nominal Christian that they are not ready to meet God,

Is "nominal Christian" another word for what Scripture teaches on "babes in Christ?' A babe in Christ is not able to understand the things of the Spirit according to Paul's teaching....

Passages apparently teaching conditional security

I would like to add one more which ties in everything said previously...

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Here Paul teaches that a born again believer has a choice, and then receives what is sown...

"For (if) you live according to the flesh you (will die); (but if) by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." () added to highlight conditional statement....

Overall, I believe that those who continue to allow the word of God to have it's way in the life of a believer, the ongoing obedience (faith to faith) will convince the believer of the love that God has for the believer. This love overcomes the old man. This love creates the substance of what is hoped for, the evidence of what is not seen.

Our path creates the evidence of what we hope for. Only by hearing the word of God does one know where to walk.

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/20 1:25Profile

Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
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