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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Marriage, Divorce, and ReMarriage.. Toward a Biblical Perspective

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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Adultry was not a problem in divorce for the Jews and the Law. The erring spouse was simply stoned to death and there was no question of remarriage, if a spouse dies you are free to remarry.

The bill of divorcement for burning the toast is what upset Jesus when He said, "from the beginning it is not so".

God will give us revelation when we ask for it. Great asking Linn.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/20 23:57Profile









 Re: Marriage, Divorce, ReMarriage - towards a biblical perspective


Returning to my thesis that we all start off in idolatry (see the results in Lev 18 as a start), this is in keeping with what Jesus said here:

(NKJV) Matthew 15:19
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

Mark 7:21
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,


and Paul's thesis in Romans 3.

(He quotes Psalms 5, 10, 14, 36 and Isaiah 59.)

9 What then? Are we better [than they?] Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;

11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.

12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."

13 "Their throat [is] an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit";
"The poison of asps [is] under their lips";

14 "Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness."

15 "Their feet [are] swift to shed blood;

16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways;

17 And the way of peace they have not known."

18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

 2006/6/21 16:50









 Re:

bump.

still awaiting lastblasts responses to dorcas' well thought out posts...

 2006/6/24 18:08









 Re: Marriage, Divorce, ReMarriage - towards a biblical perspective


With an eye on the title of this thread - a 'biblical perspective', let's look at the next little bit of the Council of Trent's well-thought out misrepresentation of scripture. They said (next):

[i]'But, the grace which might perfect that natural love, and confirm that indissoluble union, and sanctify the married, Christ Himself, the institutor and perfecter of the venerable sacraments, merited for us by His passion;' [/i]

First, the Council seems to be saying that Christ instituted and perfected the all the sacraments, of which they hereby claim marriage is one. They make clear elsewhere that this is a new sacrament, nevertheless, they also claim here that Christ had already ordained all the sacraments.

Also they say, that by His passion He brought sanctification to marriage, grace which is necessary to perfect the natural love (of the couple) and (most importantly they embed this next in the centre of their complicated sentence)that He confirmed the indissolubility of the marriage union.

I know this may seem a mean point to spell out here, but I feel it is a relevant one: we have to agree, I think, that it is God who dissolves a marriage when one spouse dies.

This has nothing to do with whether the spouse is a believer or not. My point is, that [b]God dissolves the union[/b].

This is in keeping with what Jesus said about the woman who had been married seven times, [i]not[/i] being given in marriage in heaven, because we become like the angels in this respect.

(NKJV) Mark 12

18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying:

19 "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.

20 "Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring.

21 "And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise.

22 "So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also.

23 "Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife."

24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?

25 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

26 "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."


In this account, we see how erroneous are those doctrines which suggest a couple should commit themselves to each other for eternity. This was never God's intention. He plans for His Son to take a Bride (the Church) for eternity.

 2006/6/24 19:07









 Re: Marriage, Divorce, ReMarriage - towards a biblical perspective


Returning to the text discussed in the last post:

[i]'But, the grace which might perfect that natural love, and confirm that indissoluble union, and sanctify the married, Christ Himself, the institutor and perfecter of the venerable sacraments, merited for us by His passion;' [/i]


Part of the Council's intention was to make the modern marriage of their day [i]more 'perfect' [/i]than the marriage of Adam and the early fathers of the human race. They end with this point. We will reach it eventually.

Right now, it's hard to see where they are going, apart from to hedge their 'no divorce' rule around with spurious claims of Christ's involvement in making marriage indissoluble, and bricking it up with a religious ceremony also burdened with unscriptural claims.

Here there are three more.... When one looks at scripture, it is clear that someone knew scripture, and knew how ideas were linked. For instance, the reference to '[i]institutor and perfector[/i]' is straight out of Hebrews 12:

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

2 looking unto Jesus, [b]the author and finisher of our faith[/b], who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross,.. (NKJV)

Where in the two verse above, is there any basis for this claim, that '[i]Christ Himself[/i]', is '[i]the institutor and perfecter of [u]the venerable sacraments[/u][/i]'?


I understand that the ordinary church-attender would not have access to the scriptures. They would not know that the word 'sacrament' doesn't appear anywhere. It is a theological term.

But there would be room for plenty of guilt-tripping by the clergy, as they emphasized the suggestion that Christ died to make marriage 'holy' through His passion, thus instituting a sacrament which had not been been part of the '[i]ancient marriages[/i]' ' blessing.

(Those reading this thread know that I don't believe marriage is 'holy'. [i]Pure, undefiled[/i], but not holy - even though the participants are to be holy. Now there's a paradox, but I prefer it, as I have no scriptural grounds to think of natural marriage as 'holy'.

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.)

The Council's phrase '[i]sanctify the married[/i]', also has no basis in scripture. [u]Individuals[/u] may be sanctified - that is, set apart [u]to God[/u] - and continue in keeping themselves set apart to God - [b]from the life of sin[/b] - but, there is nowhere the suggestion that [u]married[/u] people are [i]more[/i] sanctified than unmarried people.

 2006/6/24 19:54









 Re: Marriage, Divorce, ReMarriage - towards a biblical perspective


There is also a link between grace and faith, in Ephesians 2

8 For [b]by grace you have been saved through faith[/b], and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh -- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands

12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


I have included all those verses, to show something of the picture language which Paul moves towards in chapter 5, regarding Christ and the Church, which he uses as a foundation to discuss marriage. This same point is addressed by the Council of Trent in the next section.

Here, we have an important words 'gift'. Then an important phrase 'not of works'.

Then he introduces the comparason between flesh and circumcision Jew, and Gentile and uncircumcision, and states that the Gentiles were 'without God'. From this extremity, they were brought into the commonwealth of Israel, through the death of Jesus Christ, who (Paul later says) made of the two, [u]one new man[/u] (vv 15, 16).

These are important to keep in mind, as we look at what Paul [i]did[/i] say about marriage.

 2006/6/24 20:01
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Dorcas wrote:

"Then he introduces the comparason between flesh and circumcision Jew, and Gentile and uncircumcision, and states that the Gentiles were 'without God'. From this extremity, they were brought into the commonwealth of Israel, through the death of Jesus Christ, who (Paul later says) made of the two, one new man (vv 15, 16).

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

12 says we were without Christ, so were they. We were aliens from the common wealth of Israel, and We are still aliens of the common wealth of Israel, Praise the Lord. We are still strangers from the covenants and promises give to Israel. We were without God in this world, but now we are brought to the Father by The Cross of Christ.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Notice the in Christ statement. Israel was never in Christ is still not. We were far off because Israel was supposed to bring the good news of a Savior that would come for the whole would, but they did not, and then when He did come they did not believe Him and crucified Him.
Israel was offered the same salvation we have after the cross and approx 15 years after the Cross Paul told them they had fulfilled what Esaias the prophet said unto our fathers, Acts 28:26-27 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Now Paul for the Last Time says to the People of Israel: Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

By hearing we by Him are are at peace with God, not Israel. Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Making us one is not Israel and Gentiles, It is Christ and us made one in Him, this is how we are made nigh. The wall of partition is not between us and Israel but between Gentiles and God and also Israel, they are saved the same way we are. Ephesians 2:15-16 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

"for to make in Himself of twain (two) one new man, so making peace" with God. Of two is not Israel and Gentile, it of Himself and the believer by Christ being born again in us who believe, one new man. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. ("One New Man")

Then finally in :16 Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Reconcile both unto God. To the end is to make peace between God and man, that He might reconcile both Jew and Gentile, which means nothing in Christ, to reconcile us to Him, Jesus Christ and His Body the Church to the Father.

What was the enmity slain? The middle wall of partition between us and God the Father and Having abolished in His flesh that enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
Christ took away the wall of Partition and the enmity that kept us from God, bringing us to Himself by birthing of "Our Father" His Son in us.

This make marriage even more by showing by Paul the mystery of Christ and the Church. What is the Mystery? Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/25 6:21Profile









 Re: Marriage, Divorce, ReMarriage - towards a biblical perspective



EDIT: Phillip, you posted while I was preparing my next. I'll return to the above when I've laid the next few out. :-)


The Council of Trent went on to say:

[i]'as the Apostle Paul intimates, saying: Husbands love your wives, as Christ also loved the Church, and delivered himself up for it; adding shortly after, This is a great sacrament, but I speak in Christ and in the Church.'[/i]


Here is what Paul said in Ephesians 5

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.

29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord [does] the church.

30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife [see] that she respects [her] husband.


It takes faith for a man to lay down his life for his wife, just as it takes faith for a woman to submit to her husband. The order is clearly for the man to lead in this, by laying down his life first, because he loves his wife so much.


As Phillip said earlier, human marriage is the shadow of the real tree. As Eve was taken from Adam's side, becoming flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone, so the church is born out of Christ's death (the blood and water from His pierced side), that v 30 above may apply. By faith, He presents (gifts) Himself with a (v 27) 'a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.'


The Council's [i]'adding shortly after, This is a great sacrament, but I speak in Christ and in the Church.'[/i] is typically inaccurate.

contd.

 2006/6/25 7:20









 Re: Marriage, Divorce, ReMarriage - towards a biblical perspective

contd.


Paul was clear of the differences between when he spoke from his own understanding and when he shared what the Lord had revealed to him. In Ephesians he makes no claim to be speaking for the Lord, whereas in 1 Corinthians 7, he says

10 And unto the married I command, [yet] [b]not I, but the Lord[/b], Let not the wife depart from [her] husband:

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.

12 But [b]to the rest speak I, not the Lord[/b]: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save [thy] husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save [thy] wife?

17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.


In this extract of the chapter, there is a recognition of the deep connection between a husband and a wife, which is honoured by God, when they are in emotional and spiritual harmony with each other.

There is also a recognition of the bondage which is represented by a marriage where this emotional and spiritual sympathy (sympathy = feeling the same way) is consistently missing. This is backed up by Paul's other exhortations for believers to have no spiritual fellowship with unbelievers.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

1 Corinthians 10:20
Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose [them.]

Here is the context for v 11

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things [see vv 1 - 5] the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

8 For you were once darkness, but now [you are] light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

9 (for the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),

10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose [them.]

12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.

13 [b]But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.

[/b]14 [b]Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light."[/b]

15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise,

16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord [is.]

18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,

19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,

20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,

21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.


There is an assumption in both Eph 5 and 1 Cor 7, that the unbelieving spouse who stays with the believer, accepts the principle that the believer's spiritual status with God, over-rules the spiritual status of the idolater. This is the only way to make sense of the equality which appears between men and women who are in Christ, when their marital status is not taken into account.


contd.

 2006/6/25 7:30









 Re: Marriage, Divorce, ReMarriage - towards a biblical perspective

contd.


Galatians 3
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, [b]there is neither male nor female[/b]; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Therefore, I am stating the obvious when I point out that while the male has leadership qualities and responsibilities within the 'one flesh' status of a marriage, this does not extend to the spiritual leadership, until he also has Christ as his Head. While the wife is the only spouse who has Christ as her Head, there is an uneasy re-assessing and re-distributing of certain aspects of spiritual leadership [i]to her[/i], which is God-given, and which by remaining with her after her conversion, a husband acknowledges - or must come to acknowledge.

This tension leads to a huge question for the wife, about how far she need lay down her life for her husband, bearing in mind she [i]is[/i] called to lay it down for [b]the Lord[/b].

One thing is for sure... she does not need to lay it down physically, nor be destroyed by her mate. Paul is not saying she should; neither need a man be destroyed by his wife's idolatry, nor beaten to death by her.

In fact, it is clear from Eph 5:29, that Paul is specifically speaking [i][b]against[/i][/b] physical violence by a man towards a woman, within marriage. He is almost incredulous that a man would ever think he is [i]loving[/i] his wife - his own body - by hurting or harming her. Unusually, Paul goes as far as saying '[b]no one [u]ever[/u][/b]' and uses the word 'hate' of the behaviour wherein a man would hurt his own body.

This is interesting, when placed beside John's statement about the effect of hating:

1 John 2
9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.

10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him.

11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and [b]walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes[/b].


Here, we are back to the link between blindness, darkness, sin and idolatry. It has to be taken seriously, when placed beside Paul's comments about children of light in Eph 5. It is [i][b]this choice[/i][/b] which faces the unbelieving spouse, when they try to decide whether to stay with a believing spouse. If the believing spouse is truly full of light, then the darkness in the unbeliever is going to come under severe pressure. By staying, they are intimating a willingness to come to the light and to dwell in the light, are they not?


contd.

 2006/6/25 7:35





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