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 Re: Marriage, Divorce, ReMarriage - towards a biblical perspective


FOC said:

Quote:
Oddly enough, "adulteress" there in Romans 7 ALSO figuratively means "apostate"...

G3428
μοιχαλίς
moichalis
Thayer Definition:
1) an adulteress
2) as the intimate alliance of God with the people of Israel was likened to a marriage, those who relapse into idolatry are said to commit adultery or play the harlot
2a) fig. equiv. to faithless to God, unclean, apostate

This is new to me. How interesting.

I know from my other studies of related topics, that there is a consistency across God's word, which reflects again and again, His thought and heart. I've come to view it in my mind's eye, as a globe, within which all the points on the surface of the globe connect across to each other, internally, and at peace with each other. If my idea doesn't fit His wider scheme, then it is I, not He, who makes the adjustment.


Cindy, I noticed you refer to [b]spiritual adultery[/b]. I'd be very interested in your definition of that.

So far, you have not given a definition of either adultery, or fornication, which is able to be applied with the simple consistency which it appears in scripture.

I'm also interested in the phrase, because a few posts ago you were saying you think I over-spiritualise virgintiy. I realise this is not quite the same as a [i]concept[/i] of [b]spiritual virginity[/b] but they are very close.

I'm not sure how you can know what spiritual adultery IS, if you are not clear about spiritual virginity, and whether, if one loses one's spiritual virginity, it can ever be regained?

 2006/5/24 15:14









 Re:

lasatblast..

Since you refuse, as usual, to deal with being proven errant, I guess I will simply just respond to your posts.

btw, ignoring a refutation doesnt nullify it.
You WERE proven errant...again...Paul IS speaking about Mosiac Law in Romans 7.

additionally..

Quote:
The problem is the church is pointing outward saying God did not join THOSE marriages, yet feels that God DOES join those unions He calls adultery.


No, we feel that YOU arent given permission to reject His exception clause in which a SECOND marriage is NOT adultery by HIS OWN WORDS where the previous spouse was put away for whoredom.

YOU call these adultery...GOD does not.


Quote:
t's an interesting thing to see that history has repeated itself. The Lord rebuked the Pharisees for coming against those who committed adultery when they themselves were guilty of the very same thing(yet they couldn't see it either)..


Yes it is.
Its also interesting to see folks who are too 'lazy' to take the time to actually distinguish the innocent from the guilty, so they simply toss everyone into the same basket of condemnation to keep from actually having to 'rightly divide' His word and instruction.

 2006/5/24 15:15
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
I guess we will see how that sort of thing weighs in at the Judgment Seat, now won't we? That is, when another debate is settled as well, that debate is eternal security.



Ah, yes, the eternal security debate. Right now, I lean in the Calvinist direction, but very far from Cheap Grace. I believe the evidence of our salvation WILL be seen, but that does not mean that I believe in a works salvation. I believe if one truly is a child of God they can get off into sin, but they WILL come home in repentance.

I think it's kinda ironic that some who believe one can lose their salvation think it ok to remain in adulterous marriages----somehow thinking that this one type of illicit relationship turns into a lawful union even though there's nothing in scripture to show such a thing. Many of these same "repentance" preachers will teach that if one does not forsake an adulterous extramarital affair, they are hellbound........as is any person who continues in a known sin, be it sexual or other sins as spoken of by Paul concerning those who will/will not inherit the kingdom of God. There are many interesting things to ponder when one scratches beneath the surface concerning this issue of remarriage=adultery. Blessings in Him, Cindy


_________________
Cindy

 2006/5/24 15:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

FOC said:
Quote:
Oddly enough, "adulteress" there in Romans 7 ALSO figuratively means "apostate"...

G3428
μοιχαλίς
moichalis
Thayer Definition:
1) an adulteress
2) as the intimate alliance of God with the people of Israel was likened to a marriage, those who relapse into idolatry are said to commit adultery or play the harlot
2a) fig. equiv. to faithless to God, unclean, apostate

This is new to me. How interesting.


Sadly enough, its been pointed out to cindy ad nauseum....she simply rejects anything that doesnt agree with her doctrine.

You see how Ivw proven in this thread that Romans 7 IS refering to Mosiac law....but you can bet your buttons cindy not only wont admit it or accept it, but keep you eye on her posts, she'll be repeating the same exact thing at some point, that Paul supposedly ISNT comparing the Mosiac 'Law' to this 'law of the husband'.
Denial is a powerful thing...

Quote:
If my idea doesn't fit His wider scheme, then it is I, not He, who makes the adjustment.


As is the case with ALL true students of His word.
We can easily discern the false student when they casually dismiss even the most basic of correction when their error is as evident as we've seen in this thread.

The true student will ALWAYs adjust his views to fit new information when that data is shown to be true.

 2006/5/24 15:22
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
Cindy, I noticed you refer to spiritual adultery. I'd be very interested in your definition of that.



Dorcas,

If you are not familiar with the multitudes of scriptures in which God speaks of His people committing adultery (not physical, sexual relations, but idolatry), then I would be happy to look some up for you. I think that is a very clear teaching throughout scripture. It is not the same as your concept of spiritual/renewed virginity.

As for definitions of adultery/fornication, I think the Strong's on those words and greek lexicons have already been posted, no? I am not at odds with those definitions. Blessings in Him, Cindy


_________________
Cindy

 2006/5/24 15:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:

lastblast wrote:


I think it's kinda ironic that some who believe one can lose their salvation think it ok to remain in adulterous marriages---


Again...you have yet to PROVE these marriages are adulterous when the ex has been put away for whoredom.

Quote:
There are many interesting things to ponder when one scratches beneath the surface concerning this issue of remarriage=adultery. Blessings in Him, Cindy

scratches beneath the surface?
Is that all you have done here?

You know full well how much time Ive invested in this discussion cindy....hardly 'scratching' beneath the surface.

Not a single one of your assertoins has gone unrefuted by myself and others who have dug deeply enough to understand that 'except for whoredom' means precisely what it clearly states

 2006/5/24 15:28









 Re:

Quote:

As for definitions of adultery/fornication, I think the Strong's on those words and greek lexicons have already been posted, no? [b]I am not at odds with those definitions.[/b] Blessings in Him, Cindy


Actually you are.
Strongs includes simple adultery in its definition of fornication.

[b]G4202
πορνεία
porneia
por-ni'-ah
From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.
[/b]

You, yourself, admitted that you dont believe fornication (porneia, g4202) is 'adultery' within a lawful marriage....thus you ARE at odds with the Strongs....and MANY other dictionaries and scholars...including your dear Hermas, ECF.

readers see...
http://www.geocities.com/divorceandremarriage/adulteryisfornication.html

 2006/5/24 15:34









 Re:

Did Jesus say ''wife'' or "espoused" wife

In His exception clause, Jesus is clearly refering to a lawful wife. If Jesus had been only refering to the betrothal period in the exception clause, He would have used the very term used for Mary at times...."espoused wife'' or ''espoused'' (see G3423) in His exception clause.
*IF* He were restricting His exception to the betrothal period, there is no reason to believe that our Lord would have been so vague about it.
The fact is NOTHING presented in scripture backs this silly assertion by some who say that Jesus only meant to except the betrothed wife.
This is all deceptive propaganda created to further a false doctrine... this idea does not come from Gods word.

Jesus clearly used the word that means ''wife'' or woman. A mans woman was his wife. She was his lawful wife from the moment the marriage was contracted. The betrothed wife was a lawful wife.
Jesus being a Jew and being God, knew this.
When He said ''wife'' He was refering to whoredom of a wife, pre or post consummation.
(compare Matt 19.9 and 5:32 with Luke 2:5)

Conclusion:
Jesus could have said "espoused' or 'betrothed' ("mne?steuo?" as is used for Mary) in His exception, yet He chose to use the normal word for a 'wife'(gune?) in Matthew 19.
If Jesus WAS discerning one OVER the other, His ACTUAL words would be pertaining to the consummated wife and not the betrothed at all.

But seeing that the betrothed wife was lawfully contracted in marriage, she was just as much a 'wife' for legal and religious reasons as the consummated wife.

 2006/5/24 15:43









 Re: Marriage, Divorce, ReMarriage - towards a biblical perspective


Hi Cindy,

I'm not planning to quote the Matthew 19 verses again, but, I want to say this, which has just occurred to me.

When Jesus said 'Moses suffered ...' them to put away their wives 'for every cause' because of the hardness of mens hearts, by [b]excluding[/b] divorce for fornication (porneia), He was (by simple logic) also [u]vindicating a faithful spouse from hardness of heart[/u] for that divorce..... because, ONLY those who divorced their spouse 'for every cause', were guilty of 'hardness of heart'.

The spouse with the hardness of heart, in that case, is the spouse who committed porneia - that is, the spouse who not only committed adultery in her or his heart and mind, but put it into action.

This is another reason the faithful spouse is free from guilt.

You know, it strikes me as strange that you not only want as system where one spouse goes so far as to actually commit adultery, and then, that person is to EXPECT, having broken the most serious flesh covenant they can make during their lifetime, that the person they have deserted and betrayed is BOUND to WAIT, until THEY are in the mood to repent.

Not even God does this for ever. EDIT It is a Divine attribute that He waits as long as He does, when He could simply have walked away from us all. EDIT end

In the earlier quote you made from Peter, the operative verb is WILLING. Of course GOD is not [i][b]willing[/b][/i] that any should perish. He believes He has done enough in Jesus to prevent that. But, this knowledge / information, has to be balanced again the Lord's own prophecies about few finding the narrow gate, and the way to destruction being broad.

Also, that HE said, there would be publicans and harlots going into the kingdom of God (Matt 21).

The [i]whole[/i] counsel of scripture has to be included in our analysis.

 2006/5/24 16:18
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

This discussion reminds me of the experience I had while working with female clients at the Crises Pregnancy Center.

Many of my clients were involeved in adulterous situations. Some were married and divorced; others were fornicating. To the divorced I would ask "how do you fell about that? is it right?" What was so interesting were the answers I got from them. The average woman agreed that to remarry with a spouse living was sin, or adultery. The women who said it was not sin were those who relied on logic and human reasoning to justify their position and they could jump through some fancy hoops in doing so. They arrived at those positions by having been persuaded by another eloquent preacher or friend.

The simple person understands Jesus words as recorded in Mark 10:11; Luke 16:18 (15-18)as simply meaning that if a person remarries after divorcing his/her spouse commits adultry.

After counseling with many females of all kinds: rich, poor, in-between, intellectual, average , mature, immature, Christian, nonChristian, lost, saved persons guilty of any sin under the sun I have gained an insight as to why Jesus resorted to the masses to teach and not the religious (Jewish)heirarchy.

The simple person on the street was not given to arguments but accepted his words as given. The Scribes and Pharisees on the other hand were given to circumvent the OT law to fit their own logic and reasoning for whatever reason, thus nullifying God's word. THIS is what would rile Jesus when discussing law with the Jewish leaders. An example of this is found in Mark 7:9-13: "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10: For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12: And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

If you were to accept the directive given by Jesus in Mark 10:11-12: 11: And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12: And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery. OR Luke 16: 15-18:15: And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16: The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17: And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18: Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery" it would solve a lot of disputes.

In v. 16 Jesus is plainly saying he is issuing a NEW directive: the Old Testament law was until John and NOW the kingdom of heaven is being preached and EVERYONE is pressed into it, meaning HE has the last word on this issue.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/5/24 23:00Profile





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