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Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Logic, you missed the points I was making. I'll try to be more explicit next time.

Quote:

Nile wrote:
Quote:

You are forgetting that one does not loose his relationship with Christ because of one sin, because it is the relationship that one has with Christ that saves him.

Adam lost his relationship with God "because of one sin".


If you see my previous post, I said that the wording here is not perfect. Basically what I'm saying, is that Adam was damned, the universe thrown into chaos, and the human race cursed because of just one sin, regardless of whatever sort of "relationship" he had with God.

Quote:

Nile wrote:
Our relationship with Christ is based on faith.


This is the same as the last one. When I said "relationship" I was thinking a saving relationship.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
If we sin, it shows that we have no faith, thus no relationship.


Same thing.


Quote:

Logic Said:
Notice the "sinning"
is voluntary prestent active plure.

Christians who still have a relationship with Christ do not keep sinning voluntarily with many sinns.
This isn't rocket science: The verse is talking about living a life of sin.



I'd consider this eisegesis, inserting things into the text that aren't there.
Jesus said, "Go and sin [b]no more[/b]." Not, "Go and [i]sin less[/i]."
I find no place in the Bible where Christians warned against "many sins" but instead "any sin". I'd be very interesting in seeing them if there are any (and maybe there are).

You hit the nail no the head with "living a life of sin", you just don't have the proper definition of "living a life of sin".

If you rebel against God and sin, guess what - you're living a life of sin. One sin casts your whole character and countenance against God, it affects you as a whole, not only in some isolated way. You have once again become a slave to sin, neglecting the salvation of God.

Look at the converse and tell me what you think: Is it possible to rebel against God in body, soul, and spirit, to cease to love God with all your heart, to commit cosmic treason, to neglect the grace of God, to call God a liar, to shame the name of Christ, to turn from Him, to have no faith in God, to be guilty of all the points of the law (remember, if you break one, you are guilty of them all), to become once again a slave to sin and a servant of the devil, loving the world and despising God (this is what happens when you sin, see Matthew 6:24)...and you are all the while not "living a life of sin"?

[i]Then what in blazes [b]is[/b] living a life of sin?!?!!?[/i]

Quote:

Logic Said:
This is talking about those whgo do not seek His guidance in their afairs in this life.
Notice that HE never knew them.



You're implying I was implying things that I wasn't. This and the following verse were in response to:

Quote:

It is only when one down right forsakes Christ with impunity and does not care about it, that is when one looses the relationship with Christ.



As is clear by reading my original post and my later post, where I expound on it:

Quote:

Nile Said:
I posted those last two scriptures trying to show that it is possible to not be saved even if you don't "down right forsake Christ". That is, even men who "name the name of Jesus" will be cast into Hell. Because, of course, their naming is in vain and without works to prove it real (as James talks about). Also, men may claim to follow Christ, but become careless and doom themselves in their careless sin.



Even though you misunderstood me, thanks for pointing out the apparent errors!

Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/30 6:24Profile









 Re:

[b]John 1:12[/b] [i]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the [b]sons of God[/b], even to them that believe on his name[/i]

[b]Roman 8:15[/b] [i]For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of [b]adoption[/b], whereby we cry, [b]Abba, Father[/b].[/i]

[b]Galations 4:4-6[/b] [i]But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the [b]adoption of sons[/b]. And because ye [b]are[/b] sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, [b]Abba, Father[/b].[/i]

[b]Ephesians 1:5[/b] [i]Having predestinated us unto the [b]adoption of children[/b] by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...[/i]

If someone is saved, they are a child of God. This means that God is our Father.

What a horrible and sinister example God would be to all of us human fathers if He operated in the manner in which you are representing Him here on this thread, Nile.

Think about this... I have four sons. All were born with a sin nature, so at times, they are disobedient toward me and their mother. When they are disobedient the relationship is strained, and we do not enjoy the closeness that we normally enjoy. But [b]never[/b] do they cease being my children.

God uses human relationships as examples and metaphors for how He operates within His Kingdom. Weddings, for example. The Marriage Feast of the Lamb. The example of a husband and a wife.

And He uses the relationship of a father with his child.

[b]Luke 11:13[/b] [i]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?[/i]

My best friend has an adopted son. His son enjoys all the rights and priviledges as my friend's son as my own flesh and blood sons enjoy with me. Even tho at times this boy may act up and disobey... my friend doesnt run down to the court house and severe the relationship.

You're saying that God expects us to stick with a situation that He Himself isnt willing to do. I dont buy that. Not for a minute.

When I sin (lets not get 'PC' and call it fail), my relationship with God suffers... it's not as intimate until I confess to Him and make it right... but never once do I ever stop being saved, or being His adopted son. Scripture says that when we sin we have an advocate... Christ Jesus. It's because of Jesus that we are able to stay in relationship with God the Father.

And [b]that[/b] is the difference between us and Adam. Adam needed to do sacrifices for the atonement of his sins. Thats something that lasted until Jesus died on the cross... the final sacrifice. I dont claim to understand how God dealt with people in the OT if they died with some sin that was hanging out there they forgot to sacrifice for. But in the NT Christ died once and for all. Period. And when we accept His sacrifice, and we're [b]truly[/b] born again... the Holy Spirit is given to us, and our desire to obey Him becomes stronger than our desire to sin.

But Paul makes it clear that we will struggle with our flesh. But [b]"in Christ"[/b] is the key phrase all thru the epistles that Paul wrote.

There are some excellent sermons by Chuck Smith on the Book of Hebrews that you should listen to. They are available on this site, I believe. I think what you are doing is you are picking out three or four passages and zeroing in on them while ignoring the whole. Scripture interprets scripture. You need to read everything in the context of the whole NT, not just in the context of a paragraph or chapter.

I was treading lightly on this thread because I wanted to be sure that I understood what you were saying, Nile. Over the past 24 hours it has become quite clear what you are saying... and I love you so much, but you're in error. You understanding and exegesis is out of balance on this issue, and it's important that you come to a true understanding of salvation. You are not enjoying the best possible relationship with God as Father if you're afraid that the moment you fail Him He turns His back and walks away from you.

That is a relationship built on fear, not love and trust.

What kind of Father would you think me to be if I abandoned my children everytime they failed? I wouldnt be a father, I would be a tyrant.

I am glad that when I fail God, my Father comes to me thru the Holy Spirit and shows me my error and convicts me, and when I repent my Father listens to Christ as He reprents me before the throne. My Father does that because I am His adopted son, and He wants me, and loves me. And I am so grateful to Him for that. I love and trust my Father because He never leaves me or forsakes me. (Hebrews 13:5)

Krispy

 2007/8/30 7:25









 Re:

If I, as a Christian and child of God, willfully (voluntarily) commit lust once today, am I condemned to hell?

 2007/8/30 9:18









 Re:

Why would you willfully do that?

Do you mean that the thought comes into your mind when a women passes by and you rebuke it and call on Christ to cleanse your mind and conscience

or

you entertain the thought that comes into your mind and indulge in it rather then rebuke it even though you know it is sin, from hte enemy, and offensive to God.

In Christ, Jim

 2007/8/30 9:21
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:

richardf wrote:
If I, as a Christian and child of God, willfully (voluntarily) commit lust once today, am I condemned to hell?



If Christ can't save you from lust, why do you expect Him to save you from Hell?

Look, we need a radical redefining of our terms: Salvation is not a get out of Hell free ticket, it is the grace of God that brings godliness and sets us free from the power of sin!


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/30 10:32Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
When they are disobedient the relationship is strained, and we do not enjoy the closeness that we normally enjoy. But never do they cease being my children.



The Bible says he who sins [b]is a child of the devil[/b].
There is a sense in which we never cease to be children of God, and in that sense, even the heathen are children of God. So in a very real sense, we stop being God's children when we sin. This is straight up basic scripture.

Furthermore, you're analogy just falls apart when you look at the garden of Eden. When Adam was disobedient, more happened than just a strained relationship.

Quote:
You're saying that God expects us to stick with a situation that He Himself isnt willing to do. I dont buy that. Not for a minute.


Huh? No. [u]-HE-[/u] will never abandon us, but [u]-WE-[/u] can abandon Him. God will always offer forgiveness to us, just as a father will to a child. But if a child refuses forgivenss and abandons his father, the father cannot [b]force[/b] his child, that is his offspring, to be his son. If you're saying that, then everyone would be a son of God, because God would force it upon everyone.

Quote:
Scripture says that when we sin we have an advocate... Christ Jesus.


Yes. I have never denied it, but have affirmed it. This is not a license to sin, but a promise that you may return to God and have Christ as your advocate IF you do sin. But you are still free to forsake Him.
It sounds like you're saying OSAS. If we're going to talk about OSAS, it might be better to make a new thread.

Quote:
I was treading lightly on this thread because I wanted to be sure that I understood what you were saying, Nile. Over the past 24 hours it has become quite clear what you are saying



Thanks :-)

but...

Quote:
You are not enjoying the best possible relationship with God as Father if you're afraid that the moment you fail Him He turns His back and walks away from you.

That is a relationship built on fear, not love and trust.

What kind of Father would you think me to be if I abandoned my children everytime they failed? I wouldnt be a father, I would be a tyrant.


...it seems like you still don't understand what I am trying to convey.

This isn't about God turning His back on us, it's about us turning our back on God. I have no fear that God will disown me! I trust and love God more than I ever have. I don't live my days in fear, "Oh no, what if I sin!" hehe, it's funny that people always think that is the natural outcome if you don't believe in OSAS.

Quote:
I am glad that when I fail God, my Father comes to me thru the Holy Spirit and shows me my error and convicts me, and when I repent my Father listens to Christ as He reprents me before the throne. My Father does that because I am His adopted son, and He wants me, and loves me. And I am so grateful to Him for that. I love and trust my Father because He never leaves me or forsakes me. (Hebrews 13:5)


Well amen. I totally agree.

The only place I might slightly disagree is, "because I am His adopted son". I have a different understanding of this, which is that I don't believe we are full flegded adopted sons of God until Jesus returns. Till then, we are His children being trained to be His sons. We may stop this training at any time we wish though. That is not to say that God will not strive with us for our salvation though, as He does with all men.
Don't get hung on this difference though, it's mostly just semantics.

Hopefully after reading this post you will understand my position better.

Thanks for the dialogue :-)
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/30 10:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:
What kind of Father would you think me to be if I abandoned my children everytime they failed? I wouldnt be a father, I would be a tyrant.



To paraphrase Paul Washer...

Lets say Im your pastor and your 14 years old and I am coming home from preaching at 1am when I see you on the street corner with some hoodlems doing things you shouldn't be doing. I would stop and make you get in the car and take you home, but I wouldn't be mad at you, I would be mad at your father. I would say "Sir, you are a derilict father to let your child be out doing these things". I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT GOD IS NOT A DERILICT FATHER....

Jim says, to take it one step farther, if the same boy was out at the same time a week later, I would completely question if the boys father was fit to care for him any longer. SI readers, is your God an unfit and derelict father?

In Christ - Jim

 2007/8/30 11:02









 Re:

Nile, I think I understand what you're saying. This dance of trying to figure each other out can take awhile... lol.

I dont believe committing a sin, losing the battle... failing, seperates us from God and His salvation.

I do believe that living a lifestyle of sin and not feeling any remorse for it, or showing no repentence is a dangerous place to be. I think we seperate here tho, because I believe if someone is doing this... they probably were not truly saved anyway.

Krispy

 2007/8/30 11:25
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Nile, I think I understand what you're saying. This dance of trying to figure each other out can take awhile... lol.



Yes, it can! :-P

Quote:
I dont believe committing a sin, losing the battle... failing, seperates us from God and His salvation.



My main point on this, is that if you are not saved from your sin, then you're salvation, whatever it is, is not worth that much.

Quote:
I do believe that living a lifestyle of sin and not feeling any remorse for it, or showing no repentence is a dangerous place to be. I think we seperate here tho, because I believe if someone is doing this... they probably were not truly saved anyway.



I would say agree with you that most who go back to a life of sin never knew God.

I think we differ mainly in what we consider a lifestyle of sin.

And essentially, all I'm saying is this: If you're sinning, that's a lifestyle of sin. If you're not sinning, that's not a lifestyle of sin. I don't think the quantity or quality of the sin matters. I also believe you can repent at any moment and turn to back fully.

Gotta run to class,
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/30 12:46Profile
Lkid
Member



Joined: 2007/7/6
Posts: 109


 Re:

maybe i'm wrong, but the problem with nile's view that i see is that there is no hope, as shown in the bible. In Nile's view we can only hope that we don't sin at the time of death, obviously you would hope to not sin at all, but if you really look at how our lives play out, and nile, i think you admit you are not perfected yet, we do sin. We do battle with our flesh. So you will have to hope that you don't sin on your death bed. That doesn't sound like a great hope or any kind of assurance to me.
Instead of looking forward to going to be with Jesus after death, we would be very hesitant about death.

Aren't we instructed in 1 Cor 3
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

This speaks for itself i think.

Also sin is missing the mark. So, unless we are perfectly doing God's will at death, nile, you are saying we go to hell? Sin is not just commision but also ommision. This may be getting too hypothetical, but what if you die in a car accident, on the highway while on the way some place, when God would have had you doing something else, if only you had prayed and sought God's will for that day/hour/whatever? Your missing the mark of God's will at that moment.

 2007/8/30 12:51Profile





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