| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Quote:
You know, I think this sets a bad example. He should be repentent and never ask anyone for anything again -except forgiveness and mercy.
I make less than 30k a year working for a Christian non-profit, I have over 40k in college loans to pay off. I would like to be a missionary working among the world's unreached people groups some day, but that chain has hold of me for the time being.
Hudson Taylor once said, 'God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, we need not be vegitarians.' I trust that God will provide the money for me (probably through hard work) and open a door to serve Him in missions, if that is his plan... I would love to be able to go ask for a handout, but I doub that it's part of the Lord's design.
What I don't get it is why young, able-bodied men and women of faith have to work hard, skimping and saving to get an education while a disgraced pastor can just ask his congregation to foot the bill.
You know, he should have to skimp and save or take out loans like the rest of us. Have you considered a job at McDonalds? Plenty of people have worked part time jobs to support going back to school.
I wouldn't want to recieve counceling from anyone who doesn't have the discipline or work ethic to make his own way in this world... counceling is about helping people break the bonds that hold them... while Mr. Haggard is obviously still bound by his own laziness and wants a hand-out from his church.
Ian... my brutha... This is what I have been saying, but you said it a lot more directly than I did.
I couldnt agree with you more.
It's like on one of the main highways here, I-26, there is an off ramp by the Asheville Regional Airport. I go by there almost everyday... and at least 3 times a week there is a guy standing there with his cardboard sign that says "STRANDED! NEED HELP! PLEASE GIVE! GOD BLESS!" .... and I think to myself "How stupid do you have to be to get yourself stranded at the same exit 3 times a week?"
If this bum would put as much effort into delivering pizza's as he does begging money on that exit he would be a productive member of society!
Krispy
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|  2007/8/27 16:10 | | Rahman
Member
Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374
| | Bro Ironman's Interesting Question ... | |
[b]Bro Krisp wrote;[/b]
"Absolutely Paul said this. However, we can gather that in consideration of Pauls clear cut qualification for leadership, he was not speaking of restoring the brother to the previously held ministry... he was speaking of restoring him to fellowship with the church."
[b]Bro Ironman wrote;[/b]
"i wonder though, if the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, ultimately God has the final say right? i'm not saying that men who fall short ought not to be removed but i am asking that in that, does God not reserve the right to restore if in fact He has placed that man in that position and the man is repentant?
Something to consider?"
--- Hmmmm ...
i too agree with bro Krisp's take, and as to bro. Ironman's question i also believe that the "gifts and calling of God are without repentance", but to put that in it's purist context (i may be wrong here) isn't this talking about a nation (Israel - comprised of many men over millenia), and not just one man as in the case of being called to "pastor"? ...
OK, even for arguments sake, let's say that the gifts of Holy Spirit for this ministy, and even the calling to this ministry are without repentance, meaning that the gifts and calling in itself are always there in the man, the question i have then is if the man of God break's God's conditions in His Word for the utilization of said calling/gifts of the pastorship, would God, in reference to bro Ironman's question of restoration, restore such a man to that same ministry? ...
Personally i don't think so ... Why, because yes[color=FF0000] i do believe that God can do anything He wants to EXCEPT go against His own Word, and He is the one that "God breathed" the following ordinances in His Word to His Church about the office of bishop ...[/color]
[b]1Tim.3[/b]
[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
[2] [color=FF0000]A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,[/color] vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
[3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
[4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
[5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
[6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
[7] [color=FF0000]Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.[/color]
[b]Tit.1[/b]
[1] Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
[5] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
[6] If any be [color=FF0000]blameless, the husband of one wife,[/color] having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
[7] [color=FF0000]For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled,[/color] not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
[8] But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
[9] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
To me if a bishop divorces, even in argument that he still may be in the possession (technically) of both gift and calling, the (technicality) of his breaking one of the most important qualifications cancels his effectiveness in the position, and if in fact such a one continues in the calling i don't think it's God who has restored him, but he himself, which i also believes puts him then at even greater odds with God via His own Word ...
So for me (especially), any pastor/bishop who divorces has forfieted his use of God to pastor, and personally i'd never sit under such (ever) if i was aware of it ... Would he be my brother in the Lord as a fellow pewster, you bet, but never again as a pulpiteer that i'd sit under ... So if Randy White was married prior to Paula, my question to him would be, "What part of the above scriptures didn't you get", and if he insists on continuing even after a second divorce, "Do you really fear God"? ... And as for sitting under a woman bishop/pastor, according to the Pauline ordinances i'll not be doing that either - ever! - i don't care who thinks it's politically incorrect or insensitive to the feminist agenda ...
i think there may be grayer areas under "blameless", but being the type of "black and white" kinda guy i am i'll have to leave that up to others less "legalistic" than myself ... But i will say as as in bro Swaggarts, and bro Haggard's cases, both have kinda shot "blameless" to smitterens, and think that they, and others like them have provided awful reports to those "without", and have broken even another of the qualifications of being a good bishop, that of not being self-willed, and we'll not even mention the qualification of "not given to filthy lucre" ...
Blessings in He who is the giver of His commandments and statutes, and expects us to obey them exactly how He dictates and not of our own self-willed devices ---
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| | 2007/8/27 17:13 | Profile | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: Bro Ironman's Interesting Question ... | | Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
Quote:
i too agree with bro Krisp's take, and as to bro. Ironman's question i also believe that the "gifts and calling of God are without repentance", but to put that in it's purist context (i may be wrong here) isn't this talking about a nation (Israel - comprised of many men over millenia), and not just one man as in the case of being called to "pastor"? ...
bro R. this had me thinking a bit. could there not be a duality going on which speaks to the nation and individuals at the same time? How does this affect our current walk with God?
indeed the prerequisites of being a bishop are spelled out plainly. does this mean that the bishop is held to a higher standard than we pewsters or do we hold them up to a higher standard? i think sometimes we don't hold one another up prayer or accountable as we ought to, if we did i think we would have much less mess to deal with. i haven't seen anywhere in the text you brought up that the violation of those standards leaves the man in question without hope of being restored to that office? does blamelessness mean only being sinless as far as the prerequisites go or is there room for genuine repentance? i am thinking of our own shortcomings here and wondering if these violations (albeit not in public but nonetheless bringing shame to God's Name) are the same or is there a specific difference when it comes to those who hold offices of various kinds?
Quote:
To me if a bishop divorces, even in argument that he still may be in the possession (technically) of both gift and calling, the (technicality) of his breaking one of the most important qualifications cancels his effectiveness in the position, and if in fact such a one continues in the calling i don't think it's God who has restored him, but he himself, which i also believes puts him then at even greater odds with God via His own Word ...
indeed to violate the marriage covenant does indeed make one less effective and quite likely disqualified from being a bishop. hadn't thought of what you said at the end about the possibility of a man restoring himself...that's bad business...it seems that our Lord may well be making things such that the women preachers are being sat down one by one.
very interesting, it seems that God is rejecting and exposing those who ran ahead and were not sent of Him.
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
_________________
Farai Bamu
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| | 2007/8/27 21:04 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Your lotto numbers are: 5 3 2 4 6 1
Good Luck!! :-P |
| | 2007/8/27 22:26 | | BenBrockway
Member
Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427
| | Re: | | Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I'm not familiar enough with Ted Haggard's doctrine to draw conclusions about the validity thereof. However, I am not an adherant of the "institutional, mega-church" concept. I believe that they turn mere pastors into "celebrity mayors" (or kings) when God didn't plan them as such. Ted Haggard's institution obviously held quite a bit of clout in Colorado and in the United States. His institution, from what I have read, was extremely well-thought and apparently desired to do God's will (although in all actuality, God was probably lost in the details). The greatest tragedy in this whole story is the enormous reproach that this public exposure has brought to the Name of Christ (and the reputation of the true Church).
:-)
ccchhhrrriiisss,
As I am sure you aware, nobody is perfect and no church is perfect. Were there flaws in my church. Sure. However New Life church has been a wonderful church. It is through the leadership there, and more importantly my relationship with God, that has brought a desire in me to want to start a ministry and to see revival take place. There have been a number of church's that have seen how well the church has been run (prior to the fall of Ted Haggard) and have modeled many areas in which New Life has succeeded in ministry.
Not all mega-churches are bad. Remember the several stories in Scripture of Jesus feeding the 5000 men, not counting women and children? That would be mega "church" gathering, would it not?
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| | 2007/8/27 23:34 | Profile | BenBrockway
Member
Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427
| | Re: | | Quote:
iansmith wrote:
You know, I think this sets a bad example. He should be repentent and never ask anyone for anything again -except forgiveness and mercy.
I make less than 30k a year working for a Christian non-profit, I have over 40k in college loans to pay off. I would like to be a missionary working among the world's unreached people groups some day, but that chain has hold of me for the time being.
Hudson Taylor once said, 'God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, we need not be vegitarians.' I trust that God will provide the money for me (probably through hard work) and open a door to serve Him in missions, if that is his plan... I would love to be able to go ask for a handout, but I doub that it's part of the Lord's design.
What I don't get it is why young, able-bodied men and women of faith have to work hard, skimping and saving to get an education while a disgraced pastor can just ask his congregation to foot the bill.
You know, he should have to skimp and save or take out loans like the rest of us. Have you considered a job at McDonalds? Plenty of people have worked part time jobs to support going back to school.
I wouldn't want to recieve counceling from anyone who doesn't have the discipline or work ethic to make his own way in this world... counceling is about helping people break the bonds that hold them... while Mr. Haggard is obviously still bound by his own laziness and wants a hand-out from his church.
Ian, why can't you read up on the story in the newspaper. It might help you out. If you didn't get it in the first sentence, this was sent to a public newspaper. This WAS NOT sent to the congregation.
Also, if you would read the article, you would find that, while going to school, he was asked to help out, on a financially supported basis, the Dream Center, by the pastor of the church that runs it. Ted isn't sure if he is even going to get a dime, but at least he was trying. Could he work at Mcdonald's? Sure, but why not trust in the Lord for provision, when being asked to help out, by his pastor, and one of his counselors, a place with a lot of hurting people?
I'm guessing you may not know the feeling of going from $119,000/yr down to basically zero, and trusting on the Lord to provide some form of finacial income to feed him and his family. That is a tough spot to be, brother. Have grace, as Jesus does! |
| | 2007/8/27 23:50 | Profile | BenBrockway
Member
Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427
| | Re: | | By the way.... on the note of talking about Ted Haggard, the new pastor being voted in (the voting took place today) as the pastor for New Life Church is a gentleman by the name of Pastor Brady Boyd. Anyone heard of him? |
| | 2007/8/27 23:56 | Profile | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | 5000 FED... | | bro Ben
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
you said:
Quote:
Not all mega-churches are bad. Remember the several stories in Scripture of Jesus feeding the 5000 men, not counting women and children? That would be mega "church" gathering, would it not?
indeed not all mega-churches are bad i don't think. however, i don't think that the 5000 being fed was a church gathering of any kind. it was a bunch of people who were enamored by this Man, they followed Him, got hungry and were fed. What happened the day after is very telling. The people went looking for Jesus and He knew why, they were hungry again. After all was said and done, not a single one of that 5000 devoted themselves to Jesus. Not a one, the only ones left were the 12. The 5000 wanted bread for now, not Eternal Living Bread. oh wait, maybe this was a megachurch gathering...assuming a large number of people come to church to see what they can get for now, rather than trying to be eqipped for the work needed to have a blessed eternity which Glorifies God...
something to think about?
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
_________________
Farai Bamu
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| | 2007/8/28 0:19 | Profile | BenBrockway
Member
Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427
| | Re: 5000 FED... | | Ironman.... you might want to read the Scriptures on it again. He taught them. He healed them. Later in the late evening hours, he fed them. Why would 10,000 + people just sit around for hours and hours waiting to be fed. No my friend, they were there to be taught and touched by Jesus.
Read Mark 8, and Matt. 15: 29-39, and Matt 14:13-23 |
| | 2007/8/28 7:45 | Profile | BenBrockway
Member
Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427
| | Re: 5000 FED... | | Quote:
IRONMAN wrote:
however, i don't think that the 5000 being fed was a church gathering of any kind.
I was saying this in a very loose sense. Obviously it wasn't an established church, or temple. However, they were massive crowds who followed him for days on end to hear his preaching and for some to be healed. I don't think you have any factual evidence, even Scripturally, that there was not one person who lived out their life according to Jesus' teachings, specifically to do with the times where there were large crowds. |
| | 2007/8/28 7:59 | Profile |
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