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kathleen1
Member



Joined: 2004/8/5
Posts: 226


 Re:

You made many excellent points in your post, especially concerning the Word of God is the judge, not our feelings, and desires for those who have done this, and yes we must get our eyes off self and on Christ. I took the time to read what you posted it in its entirety, which I felt I should as I had to respond to some things you said.

Quote:
Can Christians who commit suicide be saved? Yes! We know it's possible because all of the sins of God's Children were accounted for in Christ's "finished" work on the cross. Therefore, if a true believer (the keyword being, true) were to somehow get to the point where God (for His own purposes) abrogated His normal way of strengthening and upholding Christians in time of trial allowing him to lose all hope so that they did somehow commit suicide, then that sin would surely not keep them out of heaven. Because "all" the sins of the elect were paid for in Christ Jesus. No sin that a true Christian could commit could keep him from the love of God."

If what you said is true, then you make God a liar. In Eze 33:18-19 God said if the righteous turned from his righteousness and committed iniquity (to sin knowing it is wrong), he shall die in that sin. If he turns from his wickedness and does righte he shall live. In Eze 3:21 God says their righteousness shall not deliver them in the day of their transgression. In other words, if they die in sin, they have no hope. And your "what if" God didn't strengthen and uphold Christians in time of trial so they lost hope- is absolutely contradiction of Scripture. Yes, He paid the price for our sins on the cross. But where does He say we can go on sinning and get by? He doesn't. That's why we must repent and turn from sin. That is not liscense to continue in sin. You said sin could not keep us from the love of God?

God says in Isa 59:1-2 The Lord's hand is not short that it cannot save nor his ear heavy that it cannot hear but your iniquities have separated between you and your God and your sins have hid his face from you and he will not hear. Hab 1:13 tells us His eyes are so pure He will not even look on iniquity. Since He made provision for sin, He will not let deliberate sin pass by unjudged. To do so would negate all the suffering and shame Christ bore on the Cross. Not only that, it would make a mockery of Christ's death and suffering. Jesus also said in The Gospel, "Take heed, watch and pray that ye be found worthy to escape the things coming on this earth..." that does not suggest to me that He will wink at sin. He commands us to repent.

You mentioned Samson, and his death. You are talking about a man who was set apart for God, but was not satisfied with being set apart for GOd, so he had to play around with worldly women, and yielded to lust, and betrayed the secret of his strength which was his consecration to God-his hair was only a symbol of this, and he, like Esau, traded it off to satisfy his lusting flesh. He was a compromised Christian, who had the anointing of God and lost it playing with the world. He lost his sight, and his strength, just as Christians today who play with the world lose their spiritual sight and discernment, and strength to resist the pull of the flesh and the devil and the world, when they mess around with it. Samson's death was one of vengeance on his enemies, and he died in bitter failure. Yes, I believe he could have repented and asked God to remember him, much like the theif on the cross beside Christ. So, where exactly does God get glory out of this man's life? His life was recorded as a warning to those who would take the power and anointing and holiness of God lightly and think they can play with the world and have God, too. Yes, he was included in the heroes of faith, but his is not a pattern anyone should seek to follow.

You said:
Nevertheless, "if" a true Christian should in a instant of weakness decide to drive his car off a cliff, or shot himself, that instant of bad judgment would certainly not keep him out of the Kingdom. Because true salvation means that all of his sins were forgiven, and being faithful to scripture, understanding the sovereignty of God, and the doctrine of eternal security, we can come to no other conclusion"if" a true Christian should in a instant of weakness decide to drive his car off a cliff, or shot himself, that instant of bad judgment would certainly not keep him out of the Kingdom. Because true salvation means that all of his sins were forgiven, and being faithful to scripture, understanding the sovereignty of God, and the doctrine of eternal security, we can come to no other conclusion.

You mentioned on down in your post about not tempting God, and you were on the right track there, but you send a mixed message with statements like the above quote. The eternal security doctrine is bull from the cesspool Satan calls a mind. To think that my Jesus suffered so horribly and so awfully on the cross for the sins of man, and they would take it that lightly, and presume with such arrogance He would forgive such is to make light of His death on the cross. It is bad..:-x and that is putting it mildly. If a Christian is deceived by the devil and gives in to his lies and commits suicide, by car, by gun, by whatever means, they have cut themselves off from God for eternity, just like Adam and Eve were cut off spiritually when they disobeyed and were put out of the presence of God. Those who fall for the lie of the devil and end their life, have believed a lie...they die in sin, and they did not receive the love of the truth.(2 Th 2:10) That's just a KJV way of saying they didn't believe the truth, they believed the lie, and each one has its own set of consequences. One life, one death. The "doctrine" of eternal security causes people to think they can live anyway they want and be saved, it tends to cause people to turn the grace of God into lasciviousness. NO ONE who has a true understanding of God would DARE sin lightly. That is what makes the "Left Behind" movies so dangerous-they teach this heresy. You can live however and choose Christ after the rapture...WRONG. You miss it, because you can't live for HIM now, with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH, and the fellowship of the church, how will you stand for Him when the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth, and brings conviction and convincing of sin is gone? How will anyone know right from wrong? THEY WON'T.

Quote:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
Self-murder doesn't normally appoint one to peace, but to judgement. When we leave this earth in death, the only thing left for anyone not enduring in Christ is to wait in silence for the day they must answer to God for what they have done their body. That would include the last act of murdering yourself. Once dead (and unsaved), your actions go with you as your sins cannot be purged, they are irrevocably attached to you.
Isaiah 5:20

Okay, that I agree with, but your post advocates yes you can commit suicide and enter heaven, and no you can't. So, for the sake of those who read it, or part of it, I had to respond. ANY one who teaches eternal security, making allowances for sin, teaches heresy. The only allowance is the blood, God help us not take that lightly. The Word of God, especially the New Testament is FULL of warnings and take heeds...is it God's fault if we don't and in a moment of weakness disregard everything and end it all? We can't expect Him to change His Word on those reasonings. He will not do it and the devil knows it that is why he delights in driving people to despair and such drastic measures. HE knows what will happen. God help us open our eyes and start praying for those who are being plagued by this evil thing for their deliverance! If we belong to the King, we do not have to put up with the devil's works because they were destroyed by the Son of God. We must examine ourselves and make sure we haven't opened the door to the devil, and if we haven't, then we can stand on the authority of God's Word, and pray and God will move! After they are gone it's too late and nothing we say will change anything.


_________________
Kathleen

 2007/9/4 13:45Profile









 Re: NO Guarantees - At All.

Kathleen, The Lord has blessed you with a sharp mind and you use it for Him. God has blessed.

Before this turns into another debate on the OSAS doctrine, let me just say that - this subject is affected by the security issue - no doubt - but this is where due caution must be exercised.
The arguments that take place on all Forums over the eternal security issue drone on forever and will until He returns, but this issue of taking a life - any life - should not even enter Any Christian's mind to cause the [i]vulnerable[/i] to take that route.
God help us all to do all within our power to never say or write one word that would cause the VULNERABLE to have excuse to do that final act.
May God make us all extreme pro-lifers in these last days, when life will be all but tolerable even for the Elect.
We don't even know what our own response will be to extreme persecution, torture, watching our family taken from us, seeing fellow believers killed and so forth.
If we fill our minds NOW with strengthening Bible-Only, we may not only save another's life from this No-guarantees act, but even our own.
We should read of and fill our spirit's with Scripture about the "Overcomers".

It should NEVER be posed as an option for anyone because of that lack of guarantee.
There are those who even say that Saul and Judas "were saved in the end".
Oh Lord - what have we come to as "Bible-Believers" when this could be taught ?

[u]There is no-guarantee that a person will Not go to Hell for murdering themselves.[/u] Period.

NO ONE can [u]Guarantee[/u] Heaven to anyone who decides to kill themselves - so we all need to and should push Biblical Pro-'Life' all the more, especially as we see That Day approaching and know 'what' will Precede That Day --- which is Much. What we do with this topic now, will affect us all in the not too distant future and the lives of our children and loved ones.
Thank you!

 2007/9/4 14:21









 Re:

Quote:
do you have a Doctorate in Psychiatry or brain chemistry research or are either of you neuro-scientists ?



Quote:
freebyjc - do you have any idea what an unstable or just plain "unhappy" Young Christian could do with your words and Krispy's ?



Well... this is why in my post I stated the following:



[i]"I dont suffer from depression, so I'm not even going to pretend to understand it... nor will I be judge and jury."[/i]

But of course, you overlooked that.

Quote:
Have you even bothered to read this whole thread - or is pushing unconditional eternal security more important here than the lives of God's creation ?



If you want to serve a God who dumps us when we fail, and who lied when He said He would never leave or forsake us... be my guest. But as for me and my house...

The only thing I "push" is the truth of scripture.

Quote:
Please All - read the posts of others - do the research from the links given - before any of you reactivate the "excuse" for any who may read posts like yours to Kill themselves.



In your hysterical haste [i](and I dont mean hysterical as in funny, I mean shrill...)[/i] to want to correct others while showing off your writing skills, you are forgetting to make sense. No one is encouraging others to kill themselves, and for you to even suggest that that is what I am doing is extremely repulsive to me.

Quote:
Would Paul or the First Church Preach what you have posted ?



Uhmm... well, actually... they did. Sooooo... the answer is "yes". They did teach that we dont lose our salvation every time we fail God.

Krispy

 2007/9/4 14:25









 Re:Pro-Life Doctrine.

Kathleen, The Lord has blessed you with a sharp mind and you use it for Him. God has blessed.

Before this turns into another debate on the OSAS doctrine, let me just say that - this subject is affected by the security issue - no doubt - but this is where due caution must be exercised.
The arguments that take place on all Forums over the eternal security issue drone on forever and will until He returns, but this issue of taking a life - any life - should not even enter Any Christian's mind to cause the [i]vulnerable[/i] to take that route.
God help us all to do all within our power to never say or write one word that would cause the VULNERABLE to have excuse to do that final act.
May God make us all extreme pro-lifers in these last days, when life will be all but tolerable even for the Elect.
We don't even know what our own response will be to extreme persecution, torture, watching our family taken from us, seeing fellow believers killed and so forth.
If we fill our minds NOW with strengthening Bible-Only, we may not only save another's life from this No-guarantees act, but even our own.
We should read of and fill our spirit's with Scripture about the "Overcomers".

It should NEVER be posed as an option for anyone because of that lack of guarantee.
There are those who even say that Saul and Judas "were saved in the end".
Oh Lord - what have we come to as "Bible-Believers" when this could be taught ?

[u]There is no-guarantee that a person will Not go to Hell for murdering themselves.[/u] Period.

NO ONE can [u]Guarantee[/u] Heaven to anyone who decides to kill themselves - so we all need to and should push Biblical Pro-'Life' all the more, especially as we see That Day approaching and know 'what' will Precede That Day --- which is Much. What we do with this topic now, will affect us all in the not too distant future and the lives of our children and loved ones.
Thank you!

 2007/9/4 14:29









 Re:

Quote:
I've posted the evidence - in part only - of all the Psychiatrists that are coming out against this "theory" of "chemical imbalances".



I think we also need to take a look at the percentage of Ritalin being prescribed. Do you know 95 % is in America!!!!! Does that make you wonder? Now they are finding out these original children now young adults are having children with birth defects.


Why, when watching TV are so many commercials PUSHING DRUGS? Then they have the audacity to piggyback another commercial for children to "JUST SAY NO". ????!!!!????


The power of suggestion is very dangerous.
We as Christians need to be very careful what we say, and in the end, it is not our OPINION of whether a person will go to Heaven or Hell that someone in so much distress needs to hear.

They need to hear the Gospel.

 2007/9/4 19:12









 Re:

Suicide. Adolescent suicide has increased 400% in 30 years. The United States has the highest youth homicide and suicide rates among the 26 wealthiest nations in the world. American Academy of Pediatrics

This is an interesting article concerning Ritalin and childhood suicide.



One in 30 youngsters 5 to 19 years old is using Ritalin. AMA. Adolescent depression has increased 1000% in 40 years.

http://www.wisconsinchristiannews.com/view_details.php?story_id=1073&PHPSESSID=8f07e2d76974965761



 2007/9/4 19:56









 Re:

Quote:
Katy-did wrote:
[b]I think we also need to take a look at the percentage of Ritalin being prescribed. Do you know 95 % is in America!!!!! Does that make you wonder? Now they are finding out these original children now young adults are having children with birth defects.


Why, when watching TV are so many commercials PUSHING DRUGS? Then they have the audacity to piggyback another commercial for children to "JUST SAY NO". ????!!!!????


The power of suggestion is very dangerous.

We as Christians need to be very careful what we say, and in the end, it is not our OPINION of whether a person will go to Heaven or Hell that someone in so much distress needs to hear.

They need to hear the Gospel.

Suicide. Adolescent suicide has increased 400% in 30 years. The United States has the highest youth homicide and suicide rates among the 26 wealthiest nations in the world. American Academy of Pediatrics

This is an interesting article concerning Ritalin and childhood suicide.



One in 30 youngsters 5 to 19 years old is using Ritalin. AMA.

Adolescent depression has increased 1000% in 40 years.[/b]

http://www.wisconsinchristiannews.com/view_details.php?story_id=1073&PHPSESSID=8f07e2d76974965761



Good posts Katy-did.
If we only could see what this new generation is facing. Children being drugged even without their parent's permission is the battle right now.
Another on Ritalin from off the link given earlier along with yours, proves we are a totally different culture/society and it's crept up on some unawares.
http://www.breggin.com/ritalin.html

What I think of is, those who may have just made some sort of mental assent to the Gospel and have not really come to a true saving faith or any unsaved wanting to know the "Christian view", that they may act on later. If they are reading that they can still get to Heaven, what shall happen to them ?

I worry a lot about the young and old in this land and I appreciate posts that do see things in light of this new age that we're living in, where fabricated "medical science" is looked up to and even beyond what is written in the Word.
Satan wants to kill them before we do have the chance to win them to Jesus.

How did the last 6000 years worth of God's people manage without what is shelled out now ?
The rates of insanity are rising. How are we doing so far "medically"?
We've come a long way from the 'Leave it to Beaver and Father Knows Best' days.
Thankful for you posting these statistics, so we can compare them to what is being taught to our children and grandchildren today.
We can focus our prayers on this issue and pray that no one will ever consider these dangerous alternatives, nor suggest them to the children.
There are so many true stories out there of what a Loving God can do, to make life worth living and to it's fullest and bind up the broken hearted and set the captives free.
I believe it should be a part of our Revival prayers, so there are some left and with a mind to Witness to.
Thank you!

 2007/9/4 20:27









 Re:

Quote:
What I think of is, those who may have just made some sort of mental assent to the Gospel and have not really come to a true saving faith or any unsaved wanting to know the "Christian view", that they may act on later. If they are reading that they can still get to Heaven, what shall happen to them ?





He_Reigns: That was my original intention in posting part of my testimony here. I'm not sure anyone grasped the meaning of what I was saying. You captured it in your above statement.

1/2 the Gospel WILL NOT save anyone, and I was tormented for years about why just going to Heaven after I died was suppose to be the whole of the Good News.


Well, here are scripture below THAT IS the GOOD NEWS the WHOLE Gospel teaches.

Compare and look at the flesh and the works of the flesh. Also consider ***20Idolatry, witchcraft***

Idolatry is the worship of false gods (including self) or anything other than the ONE TRUE GOD.

Witchcraft and Sorcery work through drugs.
http://www.letusreason.org/Curren10.htm


When we come to God through Jesus Christ, identify with Him in death and resurrection life, OUR FLESH nature, now rendered inoperative through the quickening power of the Life of Christ in us has overcome our flesh. But we must
KNOW this is true - OBEDIENCE of faith
RECKON with this truth - OBEDIENCE of faith
YIELD to this Truth - OBEDIENCE of faith
Romans 12:1&2
Romans 16:24-27

Romans 6-8 is the very heart and soul of our Christian walk and life. Yet, how many, after getting saved want to put you back under the "Law" of sin and death? GRACE is the Law of LIBERTY, LIFE AND PEACE IN CHRIST. We are a NEW Creation IN CHRIST. Christ IN YOU has overcome the world, the flesh and sin. We live by the faith of Christ in us. *****Galatians 2:20&21

How many, who are deny the message of the Gospel, "I am crucified with Christ, No longer I but Christ in me"...............resort to being slain in the spirit? This TOO is a strange phenomenon not in scripture. This IS witchcraft. Anyone in scripture who was SLAIN (meaning DEATH) and fell BACKWARD was a sign of that person being evil. Have you ever wondered too, that the place these people are being touched to FALL BACKWARD is on their hand or forehead! Same place as the mark of the beast.

But as you see, being slain in the spirit is not necessary to those who are Born Again according to the Scriptures. These verses ARE God's Word and must be obeyed by Born Again Christians who were Born Again according to the Scriptures.

Others who may call themselves Born Again may not necessarily be.



Compare Romans 6-8 to the scripture below.

Galatians 5:
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[b][color=CC0000]24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.[/color][/b]

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.



With Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-did

 2007/9/5 5:34
freedbyjc
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 204
Jacksonville. Florida

 Re:

Quote:
The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. — John Keats
[i]
2 Timothy 2:23
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

Ephesians 5:17
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

Romans 8:27
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
[/i]


_________________
bill schnippert

 2007/9/5 8:50Profile









 Re:

Katy-did, Thank you for your posts. I was touched by your testimony and it is amazing where you've brought yourself despite all that you had been through. That is a testimony of victory and I and many others here, I'm sure, could give stories of broken homes and heart-aches, yet Jesus saved not only our souls but our minds.

You've added a lot to this thread and brought in other angles of these last days that will affect us all in one way or another.

If I may quote just a section this time:
"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."


Thank you for your sensitivity toward all souls.

 2007/9/5 15:51





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