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Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Ben: I have read up on mentally (Ive devoted about a running metre to the subject) deranged/deprived patients! I have also worked with clients with severe mental disorders (such as schizophrenics)so I know what Im talkning about.

I still would'nt compare what is frequently viewed as a geriatric disease with a mental disorder (whether a severe or a lighter form).

A person who commits suicide does not necessarily have to be deranged/deprived; in other words; - we have to see all kinds of spectra in this matter.

However The reason I posted my initial question on this forum was mainly theological:

i. To check out the viewpoints from Christians around the world on this highly explosive matter.

ii. To problemize over whether or not a suicidal would enter the kingdom of God given the biblical accounts (which Ive shared in some of my contributions on this topic earlier) and perspective.

iii. To state my argument solely on Scripture. In that exposition Ive discovered that Scripture does not give even the slightest hope for a person which uses his own will to end his own life.

In all this the conclusions sometimes seems quite harsh and prejudiced aswell as intolerant. But thats the stony side of Scripture. However as a human being I feel deeply for those who struggle with depression and other forms of hardships.

Magnus :-(


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2007/8/30 20:15Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

Mangan wrote:
Ben: I have read up on mentally (Ive devoted about a running metre to the subject) deranged/deprived patients! I have also worked with clients with severe mental disorders (such as schizophrenics)so I know what Im talkning about.

I still would'nt compare what is frequently viewed as a geriatric disease with a mental disorder (whether a severe or a lighter form).

A person who commits suicide does not necessarily have to be deranged/deprived; in other words; - we have to see all kinds of spectra in this matter.

However The reason I posted my initial question on this forum was mainly theological:

i. To check out the viewpoints from Christians around the world on this highly explosive matter.

ii. To problemize over whether or not a suicidal would enter the kingdom of God given the biblical accounts (which Ive shared in some of my contributions on this topic earlier) and perspective.

iii. To state my argument solely on Scripture. In that exposition Ive discovered that Scripture does not give even the slightest hope for a person which uses his own will to end his own life.

In all this the conlusions sometimes seems quite harsh and prejudiced aswell as intolerant. But thats the stony side of Scripture. However as a humanbeing I feel deeply for those who struggle with depression and other forms of hardships.

Magnus :-(




Magnus,

Shall we refer back to my original post?

See here:
Quote:

I haven't really read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been brought up, but what say you (all) about a Christian who gets a mental disease, gets really deranged, and commits suicide?

Does God spare his eternal soul, or does he get the damnation that some of you claim is begot by all suicidals?




I was bringing another spectrum to the table. I wanted to get people's opinions on the menatlly deranged, and what people thought about them going to heaven or hell when committing suicide.

So, for your info.:

i. I, too, am checking the viewpoints on this highly explosive matter

ii. The whole reason I brought up the mentally deranged is "to see all kinds of spectra in this matter."

iii. This is a part of the theological discussion, considering the fact that even the mentally ill are still going to heaven or hell.

 2007/8/30 23:45Profile









 Re: Choose Life.

[i]Pro 24:11-12 Deliver them that are taken to death,
and them that are tottering to destruction, oh stop them!
If thou sayest, "We knew not of it indeed," -
It is not so: The Weigher of hearts, who sees through it, and He that observeth thy soul, He knoweth it, and requiteth man according to his work. [Keil & Delitzsch][/i]

Magnus, God bless you.

Mathew Henry says of the watchman in Eze 33:1-9 - "Now, [1.] If he do his part, if he be betimes aware of all the dangers that fall within his cognizance, and give warning of them, he has discharged his trust, and has not only delivered his soul, but earned his wages. If the people do not take warning, if they either will not believe the notice he gives them, will not believe the danger to be so great or so near as really it is, or will not regard it, and so are surprised by the enemy in their security, it is their own fault; the blame is not to be laid upon the watchman, but their blood is upon their own head. If any person goes presumptuously into the mouth of danger, though he heard the sound of the trumpet, and was told by it where the danger was, and so the sword comes and takes him away in his folly, he is[i] felo de se - a suicide; foolish man, he has destroyed himself.[/i]
But, [2.] If the watchman do not do his duty, if he might have seen the danger, and did not, but was asleep, or heedless, or looking another way, or if he did see the danger (for so the case is put here) and shifted only for his own safety, and blew not the trumpet to warn the people, so that some are surprised and cut off in their iniquity (Eze_33:6), cut off suddenly, without having time to cry, Lord, have mercy upon me, time to repent and make their peace with God (which makes the matter much the worse, that the poor creature is taken away in his iniquity), his blood shall be required at the watchman's hand; he shall be found guilty of his death, because he did not give him warning of his danger. But if the watchman do his part, and the people do theirs, all is well; both he that gives warning and he that takes warning have delivered their souls."

Here are some websites that are helpful for those who desire to research this [i]most[/i] serious question.

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/There-are-NO-Chemical-Imbalances.htm

http://www.coping.org/control/content.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/current22.htm

http://net-burst.net/suicide/suicide.htm

http://www.self-injury.org/dnj.html

http://www.antipsychiatry.org/

http://www.benzo.org.uk/

http://www.breggin.com/

http://www.sntp.net/

The scope of the problem:

-In the last 45 years, suicide rates have increased by 60 percent in some countries.

-Worldwide, suicide ranks among the three leading causes of death among those aged 15-44 years.

-In the year 2000, approximately one million people died of suicide. This represents a global mortality rate of 16 per 100,000 or one death every 40 seconds.

-For every suicide there are at least 20 suicide attempts.

-Self-inflicted injuries represented 1.8 percent of the global burden of disease in 1998 and are expected to increase to 2.4percent in 2020.

-Suicide rates among young people have been increasing and they are currently the group at highest risk in one third of all countries (developed and developing).

-At least 100,000 adolescents die by suicide every year.

Figures from the World Health Organization.

Man was born with a conscience. Secular Psychiatrists have found that "guilt" leads to neurosis and disorders. Research the causes of "mental problems" and see if our moral decline has not also affected the rate of suicides. You could save many lives with His Word alone, not mixed with humanistic Psychology. Do the research that saves lives.
If we would only get it straight on this, we may be saving our own lives from the chances of suicide down the last-days road. Or preserve our own sanity, at the least.

 2007/8/31 2:52
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

HE_Reigns! Thank you for the statistics and for your valuable opinions.

Ben: Ok I understand that your motives and intentions are in the line of what we are trying to discuss here. You are welcome to problemize even more:-D!!!

However the problem with suicide in relation to faith and the eternal question is the willing part of it: our free will.

Even if we claim that there are some forces that inhabits a person and causes him or her to feel and act in a certain way; it is still that person acting and with it, there will be consequences. Every person is from Gods viewpoint responsible for its life and actions. We can not run from our freedom to choose; even not to choose is a choice not to choose. God has given us the freedom of choice - but our society today is more bent on playing the blame game than to start taking responsibilty for life itself. In that responsibility we have to care for and help our weaker citizens.

The argument that a severe mental disorder hinders a person from responsibility, guilt and accountability has to, if it should be considered logic, transcend to include serial killers, psychopaths, Child molesters and other people.

A few years ago in Stockholm, Sweden a man drove his car into a crowd of people stating that he was remoted-controlled by someone unidentified. Was that the truth? And if so, did he have to obey that evil voice inside of him? In Jönköping, Sweden, last year a man killed a 10 year old boy who was walking to school. The man stabbed the boy about 30 times claiming voices in his head forced him. Is that true? The voices in my estimation was from his brain and did not in reality have power over him. It was when he obeyed the voices that the actions took place ...

So back to the issue ... A person who commits suicide do not want to live; and it is the will not to live that makes the following act certain; just as the will to live makes every attempt or effort to maintain life certain.

So the crucial point is man's will!!! A person inhabit by the Holy Spirit of life i.e. a born again believer will have to disobey the inner-voice in continuous state (which is a continuous state of sinning and rebellion).

There is no chance in life that I ever will be convinced that a person can be filled by the Holy Spirit and a spirit of death at the same time and furthermore that the evil spirit ends up as the winner against the spirit of life (no way!!!).

Sincerely Magnus
;-)


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2007/8/31 6:35Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Oh Magnus. This is going nowhere, fast. I shall end this conversation, because you just don't understand.

 2007/8/31 8:22Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Im sorry to hear that, really! However you are free to enlight me in that case (you being more enlighted and so). I am willing to listen. Thanks anyway, for caring concerning this important issue, and thanks for your contribution in this topic.

God bless you Ben!

Sincerely Magnus :-(


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2007/8/31 8:52Profile
kathleen1
Member



Joined: 2004/8/5
Posts: 226


 Re: Ben and his precious wife..

Quote:
Let me bring this to light, since it seems that you have no sympathy for a Christian who, for whatever reason, becomes mentally deranged. Apparently they are hellbound.



What I said has nothing to do with your point. I was not talking about alzheimers disease. There is a big difference between being stricken with this disease, and being demonically oppressed and driven to the point you no longer see the hope in living and end your life. I am saddened to hear about your wife, and your friends who have tried and have committed suicide. I believe we all need to be praying for you and your precious wife, for God to deliver her and renew in her a desire to live. The devil is very good at attacking people's minds with vicious thoughts, vicious lies, and many times he comes so strong, like a flood, they are overwhelmed, and collapse under the weight. He drives people to despair of hope, and delights in their misery. Remember, he's seeking whom he may devour. I pray the love of God and life of Christ in His people will respond to this need with intercessory prayer...

Remember, folks, Psa 50:18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.

We have been made aware by Ben that the thief is trying to steal and kill and destroy in his home. If we do not stand against this and pray, by inaction, we consent to his deed.

Ben, I am not sure how you will receive this, but I have to mention it. I listen to most all of the preaching at Times Square Church in NYC. The assoicate Pastor Neil Rhodes has preached an "Overcoming" Series tackling some of the serious issues facing Christians. One of the messages was about Suicide. It was a powerful message. You can find it at the link below. It's a free download. They make all their preaching free. I believe God will minister strength and help to you in your need...and I will definitely be lifting you and your family up before the throne of the Most High. He is stronger and greater than any power of the enemy. He promised when the enemy comes in like a flood HE will raise the Standard-and what can stand against the Word of God? You will be in my prayers and on my heart, Ben.

[url=http://www.tscnyc.org/sermons_inline.php?player=&filter=y&mt=&yr=&ct=&sp=&lo=&kw=&srt=titleA&offset=700&ocl=&news_only=]http://www.tscnyc.org/sermons_inline.php?player=&filter=y&mt=&yr=&ct=&sp=&lo=&kw=&srt=titleA&offset=700&ocl=&news_only=[/url]

There is also a message on here that will greatly help encourage you, preached by the Sr Pastor at TSC, Carter Conlon "The Devil is after one thing in your trial" posted on Sermon Index.
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=123&min=140&orderby=titleA&show=20]http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=123&min=140&orderby=titleA&show=20[/url]

I pray you will find time to listen to these two messages, and be encouraged, you will be lifted up before Him, and perhaps if you will read Psalms 132, He will minister the life from the precious promises in this Chapter. It starts out "Remember David (which means Beloved-and all His children are Beloved) in all his afflictions.. and then God goes on to answer what He will do for His beloved...I pray God will encourage you with His Word today as you present yourself to Him...He is your ever present help in trouble...He will not fail you...


_________________
Kathleen

 2007/8/31 9:05Profile
freedbyjc
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 204
Jacksonville. Florida

 Re:

Do not be too hard on Ben ... REMEMBER TO LOVE YOUR BROTHER...most of us have not walked in his shoes and do not have the unique pespective of living through a spouses suicide attempt ... let alone three...

Still on the topic, -[i]I just now[/i] read it all dear ones-and I must pose some related questions [IMHO] that has not been raised so far...

[b]Those people who refuse medical treatments that will save their lives [substantually or minimally prolong] ... Are they not committing suicide?

When they turn their back on universally credible and successful medical treatments and [i]"place themselves in God's will"[/i] ... are they really?

Many times they espouse a "quality of life" issue ... as Christians is that up to us?[/b]

Any thoughts?


_________________
bill schnippert

 2007/8/31 9:16Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Good and tricky questions raised here by Freedbyjc!!!

Quote: "Those people who refuse medical treatments that will save their lives [substantually or minimally prolong] ... Are they not committing suicide?

When they turn their back on universally credible and successful medical treatments and "place themselves in God's will" ... are they really?"

Answer: On one point (from my Viewpoint)it differs from a real suicide: Such a person refusing medical treatment wants to live. In placing his life and destiny in God's hand he or she is showing a greater faith in God than in men (i.e. so called specialists).

A person who commits suicide dont want to live at all, and is surley not concerned in letting God step in and help him or her and light up the soul.

Anyway: The reasons for not seekning help can be various; I believe it sometimes can be out of fear of the pain of the treatment or something else.

It would be wrong to say that God has given us doctors to cure us so that God himself dont have to.

However if God speaks clearly to seek medical treatment - it is a sin not to obey!!!

Magnus
:-D


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2007/8/31 9:56Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re: To Ben

Ben! My accounts on this subject is not meant to trample on someone in deep hardships as you and your wife. Do not even consider thinking that. Im deeply sorry if I in some fashion have hurt you.

However Ive lost a friend through suicide and I have a person very close to me who just recently tried to commit suicide. This is a reality for many of us.
It is with them (above mentioned) in mind and out of love Im stating my beliefs on this forum. I am truly concerned for the eternal wellbeing for the one who is still alive and fighting the battle against the evil.

There is so much that I want to change concerning the word of God (such as the doctrine of hell and eternal damnation, and Jesus as the Only Way) but the Word of God still stands there with all its provocative demands and its great promises. If I belive the Word of the living God to be true it is painful to see how it veritable
collide with real life for many of us on this our earthly realm.

This is what Ive discovered on my journey of life:
i. The Word of God changes lives but life with its hardships does not change the Word of God.
ii. To know what God thinks about a subject we have to saturate us with prayer and knowledge in the Word of God.

iii. God's view of a topic does not contradict the words he has revealed to us for our eternal wellbeing.

Lastly: My compassion and love has the will and power to reach down to the deepest pits of Hell to every sinner everywhere; but it can not change God's opinion and save from eternal damnation: only God can do that (and he has stipulated a way for salvation - Jesus Christ himself).

Sincerely Magnus


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2007/8/31 10:36Profile





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