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BenBrockway
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Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

HE_Reigns wrote:
http://www.behindthebadge.net/suicide/index.html

I hope by now that you may have read some posts on here. Especially kathleen's.

For some reason demonic influence is being left out of this, by these hypothetical questionings and these modern psychiatric ponderings have won out again over The Word of God. I've written two posts on this previous page, if you care to read them. But having to say this again, for the sake of 'whomever' may read this thread, that these throwing out of hypotheticals may be just what someone would need to hear, to tell them that they have an excuse to murder themselves. My main concern, again, is those who are young or those going through some very difficult time and that is when the enemy comes in like a flood. He is brighter than we are, you know that don't you ? He's Extremely intelligent and knows how to convince a mind of anything that's anti-Biblical. And the new psychiatry has 4 out of 5 of the population having "a mental disorder". Many believe this, once they are told this is so, by an M.D. who will then medicate them. Even some of the least dangerous of medications have quiet joint-action lawsuits against them, for causing those who took these seemingly harmless meds to commit suicide. Once we begin to side with the world and this New psychiatric propaganda, that is being driven by big Pharmacuetical industries, we've bought the lie that will be the very laws that will have Christians put away, because of a "religious-disorder". You push the Bible aside and pick up a modern book on psychiatry and you've damned a whole generation. People who suffer from just anxiety think they are loosing their minds and do think of ending it all. As soon as we throw that "messed up mind" option in there, we're including ourselves, as Jesus said the days ahead will be worse than ever before or ever will be again. Men's hearts failing them for fear. Why make excuses for people to commit the one act they won't have time to repent of ? If the Church would do their job and not throw so many to Psychology, we would have power in the Church and it would be filled with victorious overcomers. We have the means to heal minds and permanently.

I pray over this thread, that no one who is weak will read the nonsense that has been posted here.

When a teen-ager goes through a break-up with their boyfriend or homelife, they come as close to suicide than as ever. Young people do not have the emotional maturity to handle stress and neither do some disabled or abused people. If they read that God will forgive them on the grounds of insanity - they may just take that as coming from Christians that may be older and wiser than they are and go ahead and end their lives. I cannot believe that anyone would even come near, opening that door, because with hypotheticals, you implant a thought in someone's mind and under duress, they may just act on it. May we instead post stories of Christians, such as a Richard Wurmbrand and the like, who was drugged and tortured for 12 years and did not give up hope ? His mind was so far gone, all he could say was "Jesus" and he survived to start The Voice of the Martyrs. Instead of bringing up excuses on every page implying that people can get away with murdering themselves, let us encourage one another with stories of those who overcame more than what is thought to be humanly possible, because the days ahead will be torture for most of us and suicide is Never a Biblical alternative or option. It's not in There.

For the sake of the weak and the ones who are being attacked by the enemy in their minds, please let us stop suggesting that they can kill themselves and get to Heaven. Please, please don't do this.




HE_Reigns,

I hear what you're saying but I think there is more to it than what you think. Are there demonic possessions? Sure. However, there is more to life today then mere demonic possessions, then there was back then.

Here is what I mean:

Pretty much everyone and there mother doesn't eat like they did back in the Bible days. We consume tons of unhealthy food on a daily basis. We consume unnatural vitamins and minerals, and we take drugs for everything. We are so consumed with relying on man and machine, that we forget about God and his creation.

So, I say all this to say, that while there is demon possession, minds do go mental over lack of many years of nutrients, proper exercising and good eating habits.

Much of the mental and other disease related issues we have done to ourselves. We shouldn't place the blame on somebody, or something else!

(Edit): I do agree that there are too many people that take all their issues to the doctor, even if it is a spiritual issue. It's sad that we do that, before offering up our problems before the Lord. Again, I think we rely so heavily on man to fix our issues, whether physical, mental, or spiritual, that we leave God completely out of the equation.

 2007/8/30 9:22Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Everything concerning the eternal destination is up to God!!! But should that hinder us to expound
the Word of God? Should that hinder us to warn of a habitual sin that finally will (accordning to Scriptures)quench the Spirit of God in our hearts???

We, as Christians are called to be Salt and Light!!! We are called to enter into the narrow Gate and walk the narrow path. A person who commits suicide has bailed out on life and taken the highway (sad but true) to eternal destruction.

If not no demands from God in scripture is valid.
Magnus :-?


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2007/8/30 9:23Profile
kathleen1
Member



Joined: 2004/8/5
Posts: 226


 Re: all the posts in this thread

Quote:
I believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God, and do not dare to teach anything else than the whole counsel of God. Given these facts OT and NT give us no hope whatsoever to think, teach or believe that a suicidal would enter into eternal glory alongside the Martyrs and others who fought the good fight and kept the faith.



Amen, Amen, Amen. I have read every post made here in this thread, to my knowledge, and have come away feeling saddened by how many "what if's" I've read here. The Word of God is pure, and it doesn't change for anyone. God is merciful, but God is just. No matter our pain or sympathy on this issue, we can not excuse sin, or disobedience.

The Lord says I AM the Way, The Truth and the LIFE, (Joh 14:6) and you can look to me and be saved, (Isa 45:22) Fear not, I will help you, and strengthen you (Isa 41:10, 13), Cast your cares on me (1 Pet 5:7), come to me, I will not cast away any who come (John 6:37) It's not in man that walks to direct his own steps (Jer 10:23)Lean not to your own understanding (Prov 3:5-6) Call upon me in the day of trouble and I will deliver you, (Psa 50:15), Call upon me and I will answer you and show you great and mighty things you don't know (Jer 33:3) I love you with an everlasting love (Jer 31:3)For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not. (Isa 30:15)

How many times and ways in the Word does God say let me help you, return to me, turn from your ways, sin brings death and destruction, look to me? If our opinions and thoughts are based on things we have felt or heard and they don't line up with the Word of God, they are not His. The devil tries often to imitate the voice of God, and deceives many who do not know this Book for themselves. Consider the passionate pleas of GOD to lost mankind, to struggling mankind, this awesome GOD who offers everything, even the life of His SON for our redemption. To cast all that off, and reject His offer of help and commit suicide is a slap in the face of God by a rebellious person who will not look to God for help. You say: "what if they didn't know? What if nobody told them?" until you are blue in the face, if you like. It's contention, debate and will lead to strife and division which the devil just loves to stir up. There is a church on every corner in this nation. There are Bibles in department stores, you can buy for just a few bucks, and most churches will give you one if you can't afford one. The Gospel is preached all over the internet and TV and radio. The excuse "I didn't know" will not stand up. To "what if" and think up some of the scenarios I've read here and how people can come up with all sorts of "what if this happens, or that" and think it will stand before God, is sad and frightening. Just because our society wants to excuse all kinds of aberrant behavior, and blame it on their childhood, or whatever, does not mean we can hold the Almighty God to the same standard. If what WE say does not line up with the Word of God, then what are we doing saying it? I think and I feel will always lead us astray....

And last, but not least,

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


I do agree with the concerns voiced here that a weak, or naive youngster who is troubled reading some of this, could, with the help of the enemy, and an already confused and hurting heart, be led to believe they could still be saved...because there has been enough doubts voiced here by some about "what if" and "nobody knows" and "God is so merciful" that someone could be tricked into doing this awful sin. The Bible says fornication is a sin against the body, but how much more a sin to destroy the life God gave, which is a blatant rejection of all the help He offers? I've heard recent reports that suicide rates among our soldiers are at historic highs, as well. And the fact that a teenager or young person or whomever the person may be, could not know God's promises, and offer of help tells me the church needs to quit blaming others and get on her face and ask God to use our lives to make a difference instead of wanting to cast blame and debate and contend over things like this.


_________________
Kathleen

 2007/8/30 12:31Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

kathleen1 wrote:
Quote:
I believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God, and do not dare to teach anything else than the whole counsel of God. Given these facts OT and NT give us no hope whatsoever to think, teach or believe that a suicidal would enter into eternal glory alongside the Martyrs and others who fought the good fight and kept the faith.



Amen, Amen, Amen. I have read every post made here in this thread, to my knowledge, and have come away feeling saddened by how many "what if's" I've read here. The Word of God is pure, and it doesn't change for anyone. God is merciful, but God is just. No matter our pain or sympathy on this issue, we can not excuse sin, or disobedience.

The Lord says I AM the Way, The Truth and the LIFE, (Joh 14:6) and you can look to me and be saved, (Isa 45:22) Fear not, I will help you, and strengthen you (Isa 41:10, 13), Cast your cares on me (1 Pet 5:7), come to me, I will not cast away any who come (John 6:37) It's not in man that walks to direct his own steps (Jer 10:23)Lean not to your own understanding (Prov 3:5-6) Call upon me in the day of trouble and I will deliver you, (Psa 50:15), Call upon me and I will answer you and show you great and mighty things you don't know (Jer 33:3) I love you with an everlasting love (Jer 31:3)For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not. (Isa 30:15)

How many times and ways in the Word does God say let me help you, return to me, turn from your ways, sin brings death and destruction, look to me? If our opinions and thoughts are based on things we have felt or heard and they don't line up with the Word of God, they are not His. The devil tries often to imitate the voice of God, and deceives many who do not know this Book for themselves. Consider the passionate pleas of GOD to lost mankind, to struggling mankind, this awesome GOD who offers everything, even the life of His SON for our redemption. To cast all that off, and reject His offer of help and commit suicide is a slap in the face of God by a rebellious person who will not look to God for help. You say: "what if they didn't know? What if nobody told them?" until you are blue in the face, if you like. It's contention, debate and will lead to strife and division which the devil just loves to stir up. There is a church on every corner in this nation. There are Bibles in department stores, you can buy for just a few bucks, and most churches will give you one if you can't afford one. The Gospel is preached all over the internet and TV and radio. The excuse "I didn't know" will not stand up. To "what if" and think up some of the scenarios I've read here and how people can come up with all sorts of "what if this happens, or that" and think it will stand before God, is sad and frightening. Just because our society wants to excuse all kinds of aberrant behavior, and blame it on their childhood, or whatever, does not mean we can hold the Almighty God to the same standard. If what WE say does not line up with the Word of God, then what are we doing saying it? I think and I feel will always lead us astray....

And last, but not least,

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


I do agree with the concerns voiced here that a weak, or naive youngster who is troubled reading some of this, could, with the help of the enemy, and an already confused and hurting heart, be led to believe they could still be saved...because there has been enough doubts voiced here by some about "what if" and "nobody knows" and "God is so merciful" that someone could be tricked into doing this awful sin. The Bible says fornication is a sin against the body, but how much more a sin to destroy the life God gave, which is a blatant rejection of all the help He offers? I've heard recent reports that suicide rates among our soldiers are at historic highs, as well. And the fact that a teenager or young person or whomever the person may be, could not know God's promises, and offer of help tells me the church needs to quit blaming others and get on her face and ask God to use our lives to make a difference instead of wanting to cast blame and debate and contend over things like this.




Let me bring this to light, since it seems that you have no sympathy for a Christian who, for whatever reason, becomes mentally deranged. Apparently they are hellbound.


Explain to me the Christian who gets a really nasty case of alzhimers (however you spell it). If he losses his memory and completely forgets who God is, is he then hellbound?

Dear ones, what a tragedy that would be if God didn't make an exception for one of His children who fall under this condition.

 2007/8/30 14:29Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Quote: Explain to me the Christian who gets a really nasty case of alzhimers (however you spell it). If he losses his memory and completely forgets who God is, is he then hellbound?

Answer: Now your missing the point clearly!!! You can not compare a physical brain damage as obvious as alzhimers with suicide or suicidal tendencies.

In suicide the person however not his usually me - is still entertaining a will towards destruction and it is the free will that makes the action possible!!!

In suicide (after what Ive read) there is often something that person is lacking that would make life worth continue. In alzhimers the person just disappear.

Magnus :-x


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2007/8/30 16:00Profile









 Re: Thank you Magnus and kathleen.

The Point is being missed again.
I remember when I was a teen-ager and my "steady" broke up with me.
I was always a happy kid, but I thought "life was over" when we broke up. I wanted to die and now that I'm old and full of illnesses - I came extremely close to having a "voice within" convince me that, "God would understand".
Then I thought, [THANK GOD], "but what will that do to those who've known me a such "a strong person" ?"
And "where" did "that voice" come from ? It was so entirely Convincing - of how it would be best for everyone and bring relief to my spouse and the others who worry about my health and so forth. Amazingly convincing and the physical pain and anguish that I was experiencing that day, had me to think that God would understand entirely. It was all so tremendously powerful in the negative sense, that my rational/logical mind would not kick in at all. So I came just a hair's breath from just taking all of the pills that I had - a sufficient amount to have "done it".
I can only [b]Thank God[/b], I had no one's posts to read that day, that would have helped me along, to think I could just "do it". I Thank God that I thought about my family and friends and how it would affect them --- but I believe that [b]He[/b] put those thoughts of love in my mind. I stayed alive that day "for Love." For the love of my family and friends. Because unless you've had someone close to you commit suicide, you don't fully understand the havoc it reaps, especially in the younger one's minds. It can start a generational affect, if a child knows their grandparent did it, or a parent or a kid at school, etc..

It can take ONE SECOND to end your life.

Ben, do you have any idea how many people are suffering in this world, who would take your sentences here and say to themselves, "Yes, I am suffering from Alzheimer [or Whatever] and don't want to degenerate that way." Look at the suffering in China and Africa - it is worse than a person with any disease, in and of itself. Americans haven't the foggiest of what "suffering" is. They want the easy way out as often as possible. A true Christian with The Holy Spirit inside them, will not commit suicide, even with Alzheimer disease. A true Christian loves and believes the Truth of God's Word and it dwells in them. HE protects them, even from themselves. Love is His most powerful agent of healing. I've witnessed many in my area with Alzheimer and other types of dementia, because of my age, and the Christians are entirely different under these diseases than the non-Christians. The Holy Spirit is very evident in them, even in the final stages of diseases.
We had a friend of our family who shot himself to death because he was dying of cancer and didn't want to be a bother to his wife and all, but he wasn't saved, yet it sent a tsunami through-out his entire family and for his friends. It was horrible for them.
We all have stated in one way or another, that we haven't the answers for ALL that are now gone -- but again, as I've said many times now -- IF you cannot guarantee, with full certainty, that a person will definitely go to Heaven if they murder themselves, than stop making up these "ways out" for people.
You are not bringing "light" to this subject.
You are straying from His Word and could 'potentially' lead others down a path of Final destruction with these type arguments.
Please consider who may read these posts. Please consider others first. Let the dead bury the dead, but Think of the Living.

I posted this on the mother Teresa headline and feel it is appropriate for this topic also.

[b]John tell us, "in _ beginning was The Word [Logos], and The Word was with God, and The Word was God.
In Revelation 19:13 - HE is returning and His Name is still "The Word of God".
Our Bibles are called "The Word of God".
One knows that they are Saved by their Love of The Logos. Both He Himself and His written Word.
Of this and only this, should we be extremely jealous, lest our compassion, extensions, sympathies and so forth exceed that of God Himself, which is a contradiction in terms or thoughts.
Our jealousy for The Logos, should - in comparison, to our love for even parents, siblings, spouses, friends, would be as hate.
If we cannot separate Christ the Logos from The Logos of the written Word, [being the only source written of and by Him], then our jealousy to abide and not contradict Him, is where our hearts of Love toward Him should be. By this, do we know that we Love Him. We would never consciously intend to contradict Him, in any of our thoughts or words, but yet, as we grow in Him - there are times in our attempts toward showing His Mercy, that we may step outside the strict parameters of His Word.
If a person does not jealousy and unconditionally love and guard The Word of God, than that will cause them to "go beyond what is written" and our love for The Word of God should be questioned and prayed over, if we name The Name.
When 'our' compassion, mercy, sympathy, grace - exceeds that of The Word of God or contradicts The Word of God, than we are in error. Remembering always that The Word of God is Who we now call Jesus.
Humans by nature swing as a pendulum between being less compassionate than The Word of God or in their attempts to be "merciful", exceeds the compassion of The Word of God. The only plume line is The Word of God, lest we pardon those, who have not His pardon and by doing so, lead others astray.
This is why He said that we would be hated. We do indeed see, or should see, all things as black or white. Either it is in total agreement with The Word of God or it is error and from the father of lies. No gray areas, as the world would want us to have and is strongly pushing the Church to have.
Our intense jealous love for The Word of God, will be and has been the reason for the persecution of the Saints.
Though our intentions may be toward kindness and mercy and sympathy, if we go beyond what is written, we have gone beyond The Word of God, Who is the judge of the whole earth. And if in our intentions toward kindness and mercy and sympathy, we go beyond what is written, then our love for The Word of God is lacking.
Love must be toward The Word of God first, then His Love will perfect our love to be as His - which contains His Holiness [which it and with it's demands] at the same time --- if we stray from The Word of God, we make our love more perfect than His.
Jeremiah, just for one, is a good example of that Love-Jealousy we must have for His Word.
God said, "Ye must be born-again." and "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other Name under Heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."


1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.[/b]

http://www.behindthebadge.net/suicide/index.html

 2007/8/30 16:29
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Ok, I think you are missing my point all together. So, I will just drop the thread for now.

Read up on mentally deranged/deprived patients, and then come back and we can discuss the issues about the most severe cases of the mentally ill committing suicide (without their senses intact) and tell me that God won't accept them.

I am not saying that suicide is ok. I don't think anyone should commit suicide, however, I don't think we can make a case for those who are severly mentally ill.

EDIT: Read what I am saying. Severe mental illness, a stage where their mind is way gone, and their senses are not intact. This means that they aren't in their right mind and don't know how to make a right judgement. In the process of their extreme mental illness they committ suicide. These same people would not commit suicide if they even had a decent sense of a right mind. Again, read up on what severe mental illness does to a patients mind.

And please stop assuming that I'm making a case for anyone to justify suicide.

P.S. He_Reigns - The Scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with my thougts on a severly mentally-illed Christian person commiting suicide when they are not in their right mind.

By the way, I have had a number of close friends commit suicide, and I highly doubt they are in Heaven.

 2007/8/30 16:54Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

And by the way, my wife has tried committing suicide three times in the past year, so trust me, I am familiar with suicide, and what God thinks about it.

 2007/8/30 17:15Profile









 Re:

Ben,

You can't convince someone who has no mercy or understanding to show mercy and understanding.

To all those who so easily condemn and judge those who are weak minded (for whatever reasons).....

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mt 7:2

 2007/8/30 18:58
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

Intens4Him wrote:
Ben,

You can't convince someone who has no mercy or understanding to show mercy and understanding.

To all those who so easily condemn and judge those who are weak minded (for whatever reasons).....

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mt 7:2



True. I don't know why I try so hard.

 2007/8/30 19:49Profile





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