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 Re:

Quote:

Nile wrote:

Quote:
Keep in mind Christ was NOT the son of God.



Who was He then, before the world began?



The "Word"; Logos, the very expression of the Father who spoke the worlds into existence. He was not Jesus at this point in time.

Quote:
I think the way your using the word "Christ" is confusing me. I am accustomed to using "Christ" and "Jesus" interchangeably.



Thats fine, but understand that is only fact now because of Calvary. Proof lies in the resurrection. All the Angels were on tip toe to witness the man Jesus coming out of that grave to be the Christ in a Glorified Human Body.

Quote:
If Adam had fulfilled his purpose, would "Christ" and "Adam" be interchangeable?



Yes. And there would have been no need for a Calvary in the process.

 2007/8/29 17:04
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Hmmm, ok, I need to ponder these things and read the scripture. Thanks for the clarifications =)


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/29 17:10Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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 Re:

Quote:

"If Adam had fulfilled his purpose, would "Christ" and "Adam" be interchangeable?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Yes. And there would have been no need for a Calvary in the process"

There has always been from before the foundation of the world, for a Calvary.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Then, why did man have to be rebirthed if Adam could have been Christ. There is only One that has the direct Incorruptable Seed, Sperma of God that brings forth a begotten Son, the First fruits. Then we are born again of the Same Seed. Adam did not have the Seed of God, he was only created, a living soul, not a living Spirit.

The first fruits Jesus Christ was birthed, Adam was only created. If Adam would have chosen the Tree of Life instead of the knowledge of good and evil, he would have lived forever on this earth. That is what will happen to Israel, all their promises are on this earth. They will be as Adam could have been but not birthed and rebirthed son's of God. The only begotten and the born again. God will then rule by Christ the King, as He would have if Adam had of chosen the tree of Life. They are different from the birthed and rebirthed son's who will be heavenly creatures and not earthly creatures. There is a big difference in the first Adam and the Second Adam. Adam chose his own nature, his father Satan. The Second Adam was already full God and fully man with His birthed nature, that is the Nature and very expression of the Father.

Adam created could never have been Jesus Christ The Only Begotten Son of God by first fruit.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him

Adam, only a son of man by creation, not born again yet. Not a son of God yet.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Now son's of God.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

In Christ a created fallen being, recreated a new Creature in Christ Jesus, born again and now a full natured son of God. The Spirit of Christ, full nature of Christ, The Soul, The pure and Logos of God by the Holy Spirit, The Body, fully quickened to contain both and waiting for resurrected heavenly bodies like His.



Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/8/29 23:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
“There has always been from before the foundation of the world, for a Calvary.”



True, but only in the foreknowledge of God was it so and only in the foreknowledge of God is that intended to be understood when read in the Bible.

You must keep in mind that the reason for Jesus, the second Adam, is because Adam 1, failed.

Now ask the logical question: What would have been the outcome had Adam succeeded?

The problem with most all Christians today is they are hung on the redemption story from a man centered perspective; not one they even desire to understand from God's perspective. One that speaks only of receiving God's blessings: "Save me", "heal me", "fix me", "teach me", "bless me", etc, etc. These folk are selfish and refuse to embrace the way of the Cross for their lives, seeking always to GET something from God rather than being interested in becoming what He purposed for them. To me, being born again means that one has this interest. Ergo, we have all these man-centered "Christian" religious factions in "how to" clubs called "church"... They have never taken the time, nor have any inclination, to understand what Father had in mind for His creation; why He created man at all, except to go to heaven if he gets saved .... and hangs on.

God wants a vast family of Son's who will be just like Him but of flesh and bone and the program of producing them can only be by pro-creation. That is the only way they can be brought into existence. Because Adam failed they all now have to be created again. That is called the second birth; "Born Again", a "New creation in Christ".

Can at least that much be understood? I believe this is the proper starting point for anyone's understanding.

Try this understanding out for awhile and see if it isn't the truth of it.



 2007/8/30 7:02









 Re:

Quote:
Keep in mind here that in reality Jesus always was what He became in actuality but it all had to worked out through the finger tips of flesh and on the Mount that day He was tranfigured. That was His graduation day.




Ormly, exactly what did Jesus do to have graduated seeing He had not even gone to the Cross yet in these verses?

GOD was revealing UNLIKE YOUR VERSION: Quote
Ormly said,
[b]Keep in mind Christ was NOT the son of God[/b]

But what is John's warning:

1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


But in fact Christ is God who became flesh for US.

So to prove this Peter and a few were allowed to see the following event [i][b][color=CC0000] BEFORE Calvary[/color][/b][/i]:

Matthew 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mark 9:2
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.


All false doctrines can be revealed by holding up the book of Hebrews.

David too said:

Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Thine enemies also include the fallen angels including Satan, before God even formed man of the dust of the earth.

*****1st Corinthians 15**** when CHRIST Puts all things under His feet.

To say that Adam 1, a formed being, was to be given this honor not only is not in scripture, but to say that he was, is to say God dethroned Himself or was about to, through Adam 1, and we all should have, if Ormly's philosophical interjection came to pass, we would have a NEW God all confessing Adam 1 as Lord of Lords and King Of King, (in Heaven) ???? and Earth and things under the earth etc, etc,

Ormly, please tell us where you are geting this. Are you reading everything ever written, Mormon, JW, all religions and co-mingling, not able to discern truth from lie?

In Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/30 7:44









 Re:

55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,

[b][color=CC0000]Before Abraham was, I AM[/color][/b]


And what did God say to Moses when Moses asked before going back to Egypt, who sahll I say sent me, and God said:

Tell them [b][color=CC0000]I AM [/color][/b] has sent you. I AM THAT I AM.

[b][color=CC0000]Exodus 3:14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.[/color][/b]



Jesus, BEFORE going to the Cross also declared

[b][color=CC0000] I AM[/color][/b] the resurrection.

Rather a bold statement on all parts here if he hadn't yet graduated.

Yet, it seems that these BOLD statements Jesus was making of Himself ....(before he graduated??),
brought the wrath of the Jews in rejecting the Anointed one. **Psalms 2:7

Love in Christ
Katy-did

Added/Edited for content and TRUTH

Ormly, do you know what "I AM" means?

 2007/8/30 9:11
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"Now ask the logical question: What would have been the outcome had Adam succeeded?"

He would have been still a created being, but would have lived for ever if he had of chosen the Tree of Life.

Adam must die in the ground to produce fruit.
As Jesus said, "Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

Jesus must die to produce fruit or He stands alone. We must be the same.

In Christ, dying in body, fully alive in Spirit and becoming fully alive in soul, by the renewing of our minds. Then complete in Christ:

Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/8/30 17:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

"Now ask the logical question: What would have been the outcome had Adam succeeded?"

He would have been still a created being, but would have lived for ever if he had of chosen the Tree of Life.

Adam must die in the ground to produce fruit.
As Jesus said, "Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

Jesus must die to produce fruit or He stands alone. We must be the same.

In Christ, dying in body, fully alive in Spirit and becoming fully alive in soul, by the renewing of our minds. Then complete in Christ:

Phillip



This was a reply I gave to another writer who was beginning to see what the issues were. Perhaps it might help us here:


Quote:
Jesus needed to be sanctified because the flesh has to submit to the father.



I may have worded it somewhat differently, however, you are on to understanding what the issue was that Jesus demonstrated to us that we, by the virtue of new birth, are commanded to demonstrate in our flesh .... as He performed in His. I.e., "Thou shalt love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength".
It can be no other way that we strive that our love and allegiance to the Father be made perfect as Jesus' was. This is "striving" for the Kingdom and "the violent, by the new birth and revelation, take it by force".. "Let this Mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus". That Mind was the very Mind of the Christ from Glory, equal to the Father yet submissive to Him in all His dictates to Jesus, son of man, who obeyed from His flesh because He loved the Father. Christ never said to God "I object and wish to do something different with Jesus". Can the lips say to the heart, I object? NEVER! The magnificent thing here is that by virtue of His union with the Father in his flesh, Jesus, son of man-Son of God, understood it all and completely obeyed. As a result, He was full of Grace and Truth. God gave him, in "full measure", all of Himself that human flesh could contain without being "Transfigured".....And it happened! He was!!

In His 3 yrs of Earthly life, Jesus was sustained because of the Heavenly Vision that was given Him as a direct result of His obedience, full of Joy and overflowing with Grace. Read John 14 in this light. Separate out the difference between Jesus speaking from His human side and the Christ [expression] of God of Jesus perfectly joined to Him as He becomes to us, when we are begotten again. [1Pet.1.3] What a privilvedge we have that is obscured by an overemphasizing of His death, the "work of the Cross"; the redemption story. It is His Life that redemption can now make available to us, for our becoming as He is by, the "way of the Cross;"...... the process by which we are, "conformed to His likeness."

Quote:
Like adam when he was perfect, even though he was perfect before eating the fruit, if he refrained from the fruit he would have stayed sanctified, which is a form of being more sanctified because the flesh is in submition to the father. That make sence?


Here we must see that Adam was not perfect. He was only 'perfectly' innocent. Only God is perfect and Adam was to made perfect; be made Holy by a series of moral choices given him. He flunked the first series.... and there was no redeemer as yet to be the advocate for him to the Father who could/would plead his case. That would have to wait for 4G yrs.
In the meantime the making of sons for the Father, by procreation, would continue only now they would all have to be redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb. We can read the history of those 4G yrs and view the struggle between God, who was determined, and ignorant man lacking in not only in his understanding but also a divine connection that would have procured a sustaining love to the Father, in his flesh. Everything was now from Law and sacrifices. The "way of becoming" was cut off from man. His very best in righteousness could never secure for him a place in the the eternal presence of God.

Enter, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin[s] of the world!

Jesus was God's full representation of normal man, man as God designed and intended him to be. By identifying with Him in His death [baptism into His Body, whatever way you wish to view that happening], we declare our commitment to become as His LIfe demonstrated. This places fresh impetus to the significance of damnation in this passage: "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 1 Corinthians 11:28-29 (KJV)

The interesting thing here is and I like the way Chambers views it; "Submission can only be between equals". However, we know that Jesus was obedient; He, because of His flesh, could only be so. Obedience is not submission but rather the recognizing of a higher authority over [in] you and the fear of the consequences if disobedient. This is human flesh here that I speak of being perfected by the Christ of Glory; the Christ now of His earthly life; Character of the Father.

Submission, on the other hand, could only be of the Christ of His earthly life who was equal to the Father; who could be the only one to say, as we read Jesus saying: "I came to do whatsoever the Father wills." The Christ of Jesus submitted to the Father's will. Jesus, son of man, not yet divine human flesh,obeyed the life that was of [in] Him. They were inseparably one in disposition.

The Father's will was accomplished. "It is Finished". Jesus Christ, the new Divine Human, is now the God of Eternity; Divine Humanity now equal with the Father, waiting for the Father to make His enemies His "footstool". Jesus Christ, Son of God rightly called is now in actuality, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords....with nail print prints in His Hands to prove it.

The Man Jesus, the "First of First Fruits". Will we allow ourselves to become like Him, .... as He was in His earthly flesh? That is what is before us isn't it, ......... if we say we born again of His Spirit?

 2007/8/31 9:51









 Re:

Quote:
This is human flesh here that I speak of being perfected by the Christ of Glory;



Ormly, our flesh IS NOT being perfected. Our FLESH is crucified with Christ. Our FLESH was put to death.

Do you believe Romans 6-8?

Or that Galatians say the flesh war against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.

Our flesh is and will always be the enemy of God and at emnity with God. God is NOT making us over to be what Adam 1 was to be...we are a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST. Old things pass away, behold I make all things NEW. Flesh and blood CANNOT enter the Kingdom of God.


Flesh and blood will enter the 1000 year reign, put under the ruling of an Iron Fist, called to pluck out an eye or cut off a hand if it offends. That's how HARD it is going to be under the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign.

But Jesus said "My Kingdom is not of this world".




 2007/9/1 12:35
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

This flesh has been quickened by the Spirit that is in us by our birthing of God. This flesh now contains the life of Christ. This flesh will be planted into the groung and it will bring for fruit. Just like Jesus, Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. We have been made that corn of wheat with the capacity to bring forth what the Father intended from before creation. That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Ephesians 1:10-11 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Our old spirit is now the Spirit of Christ.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

We no longer have the spirit of our old father satan. But by the Christ in us we now have the Spirit of the Father in us by the Son, just like Mary who gave birth to Jesus the Christ.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

And us also being born again by the same Seed.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who is the Word of God? John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Adam was only the beginning of this perfect plan and we are the plan personified in Christ.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

The Mystery is the Plan and it is now revealed to those in Christ and the perfection of the mystery which is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

The last Adam, all that is necessary for the plan of God to make every man in Christ perfect in all wisdom and understanding of the Christ that is in us. This Person is our eternal Life the Father intended from before the foundation of the World and crucified from the beginning of the world.

Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

"Before"

"From"

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Adam was created for this purpose that God by the first Adam might give birth, not give creation, but birth to His own son's by Jesus Christ the only Begotten Son the First Fruit of all those that would be born again and become son's of God.

Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Adam could not do it and none since except Jesus Christ the Last Adam. God dealt with only two men in His plan. Adam the created and Jesus Christ the birthed. One of earth the other of Heaven. Where we are not seated with Him.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

This was God's plan before the foundation of the world, it is God's plan now and it will be His plan to the end.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/9/3 1:30Profile





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