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 Re:

Ormly, I do want to thank you for this dialogue in understand this concept that goes way back to the OSAS forum. I do believe if we had had this conversation then as we are now, that forum would not have gotten out of control, as the same issue came up then as well as here. My only objective has been to conpletely understand what you were saying. Now you have explained what you believe.

Ormly, there is nothing to forgive or not forgive. It only helps me understand more clearly what you have built your foundation upon.

We certainly can agree to disagree. One has to know all the facts involved from either of our perspectives to even have a basis to agree or disagree.

Again Ormly, I do thank you for talking to me and following through to the end of this one issue.

Katy




 2007/8/28 23:21









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly, I do want to thank you for this dialogue in understand this concept that goes way back to the OSAS forum. I do believe if we had had this conversation then as we are now, that forum would not have gotten out of control, as the same issue came up then as well as here. My only objective has been to conpletely understand what you were saying. Now you have explained what you believe.

Ormly, there is nothing to forgive or not forgive. It only helps me understand more clearly what you have built your foundation upon.

We certainly can agree to disagree. One has to know all the facts involved from either of our perspectives to even have a basis to agree or disagree.

Again Ormly, I do thank you for talking to me and following through to the end of this one issue.

Katy




Thank you for your kind words, Katy.

I can assume from them there will be no more accusations from you that I am teaching a different gospel or that I am a Mormon or Hindu or whatever, ok? I am not doing such a thing. I do believe there is more to the gospel than the redemption story of rather redemption is only part of it. Also, this thinking is not to be applied to the church except as an outcome of the 'Way of the Cross' in a corporate setting. Perhaps it can be said that "rectified", "self-renounced" folk, make up the true Church. Think on that and then ask the question, "Have I been I rectified"? Am I "self-renounced"? Am I in the process of either?

 2007/8/29 6:51









 Re:

Hi Ormly, Seems like we are both early birds!


Ormly , You said:

Quote:
I do believe there is more to the gospel than the redemption story of rather redemption is only part of it. Also, this thinking is not to be applied to the church except as an outcome of the 'Way of the Cross' in a corporate setting. Perhaps it can be said that "rectified", "self-renounced" folk make up the true Church. Think on that.



I guess that was the confusion here all along, with the forum named Jesus Firstfruits. And with Scripture teaching we are His fruit, (if a seed falls to the ground it abides alone, but if it die, it brings forth fruit) was referring to Jesus death and resurrection and we are that fruit He brought forth. The Bible treaches we have been purchase with the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ. Now our fruit unto God is the very working out of God's working in the very Life of Christ, "no longer I but Christ in me"...and the Fruit of the Spirit is the Very essence of Christ In Me.

Since the spirit of the Life of Christ that set him free from the law of sin and death was never breathed into Adam's nostrals to begin with, but only that breath that brought forth a living soul, and no scripture saying that his obedience alone would have turned Adam into anything more than an eternal soul, or that there would be a transfiguration unvailing his flesh to reveal within Adam, God himself, also implying God could create another God equal to Himself purely based on obedience alone, is baffeling to me.


You do believe there is more to the Gospel, and you have formed your thoughts on what you believe that *MORE* is.

I thank you for giving what that *MORE* is, and I also said we can agree to disagree.

I do know one thing Ormly, all those other Cults, regardless of what they believe do have one thing in common...they have added *MORE* then the Original inspired Word of God teaches.

Think on that!

In Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/8/29 7:25









 Re:



Good morning, Katy. Yes, I am up usually, quite early. It's my best time of day.

Quote:

Since the spirit of the Life of Christ that set him free from the law of sin and death was never breathed into Adam's nostrals to begin with, but only that breath that brought forth a living soul, and no scripture saying that his obedience alone would have turned Adam into anything more than an eternal soul, or that there would be a transfiguration unvailing his flesh to reveal within Adam, God himself, also implying God could create another God equal to Himself purely based on obedience alone, is baffeling to me.



Then ask yourself these questions: What would have happened if Adam would eaten of the Tree of Life?
Why, after he trangressed, was he expelled from the garden? What would have been the consequences of the trangression had he eaten of it? Think it through, Katy.

Quote:
You do believe there is more to the Gospel, and you have formed your thoughts on what you believe that *MORE* is.



To the contrary. It is you who has not taken in the "rest of the story" of the gospel. You are hung up on some particular theme that is "dead-end" thinking. No doubt truth, however, it won't see you home.

Quote:
I thank you for giving what that *MORE* is, and I also said we can agree to disagree.

I do know one thing Ormly, all those other Cults, regardless of what they believe do have one thing in common...they have added *MORE* then the Original inspired Word of God teaches.


I am not interested in the other cults or you comparing me to them. I KNOW the message of the Bible, Katy. More than you are giving me credit for. Now if you are sincere as you say you are, please study out my questions above and see where they lead you in discovering the "MORE" of the gospel..

 2007/8/29 8:21









 Re:

Ormly said, referring to my statement:

Quote:
Then ask yourself these questions: What would have happened if Adam would eaten of the Tree of Life?



Seeing you didn't disagree with what seems to be your version of a perfect outcome, you are also saying if I'm not mistaken:

If Adam and Eve would have eaten from the Tree of Life, after their obedience, producing the outcome of their transfiguration (as you say)to become a clone of God himself, first being clothed in flesh, would no longer be flesh but transfigured???, with reproductive organs to produce MORE Gods and more gods and more gods and more gods, and that this was His original plan to have children??!!??

Then the only reason He originally created man was for those reproductive organs to have these little gods, or children...fully god children?

Now I do know that in Job, angels were also referred to as sons of God...but not in the same sense as would be the offspring of transfigured Adam and Eve. But they were too created by God, with a free will it would seem, and rebelled wanting to be like God, or exalt himself above God, or at least this is what we are told Lucifer wanted.

So now we have in your perfect world a dysfunctional family, with God's offspring through Adam & Eve Transfigured, and the rebellious angels constantly quarreling, not to mention possible sibling rivalry.

I would thing God would have wanted to deal with the issues at hand first before bringing sons into Glory.

This Is why I believe, as I showed in Revelation, God's plan, that before all were brought into Glory, Satan and the fallen angels would have been dealt with, seeing in the NEW Heaven and New Earth, nothing evil, nothing that could make a lie, (as the serpent was a liar from the beginning) could enter in.

This is my final answer Ormly. Nothing can change my mind on the matter.

In Christ
Katy-did




 2007/8/29 9:01









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly said, referring to my statement:

Quote:
Then ask yourself these questions: What would have happened if Adam would eaten of the Tree of Life?




I asked a simple question. Can you not give a simple answer? Can you be that obstinate?

NOTE: Transfiguration is the necessary result of obeying God.

 2007/8/29 9:35
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Fruits

Psa 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Hang on to that folks, it was only a few replies back


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/8/29 9:48Profile









 Re: Fruits

In searching this out I came across this by Chambers:

Analogy of the First Adam and Last Adam (Romans 5:12, 19)

There are only two Men in the Bible: Adam and Jesus Christ, “with all humanity hanging at their girdles.”

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

"The New Testament reveals that the birth of Jesus was an advent, not a beginning—an advent that put Him on the plane, humanly speaking, that Adam was on. The first Adam and the last Adam came direct from the hand of God.

God did not create Adam holy, He created him innocent, without self-consciousness (as we understand the word) before God; the one thing Adam was conscious of was God and only of himself in relation to the Being Whose commands he was to fulfil; the main trend of his spirit was towards God. [b]Adam was intended by God to take part in his own development by a series of moral choices whereby he would transform innocence into holiness. Adam failed to do this, Jesus Christ came on the same platform as Adam and did not fail. Supposing Adam had transformed the natural life into the spiritual by obedience, what would have happened? Transfiguration; he would have “spiritualised” the natural life and made it all that God wanted it to be.[/b] The natural life is neither good nor bad, moral nor immoral; it is the principle within that makes it good or bad, moral or immoral".

This was a confirming word to me.

 2007/8/29 10:22









 Re:

Quote:
Psa 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!



I do understand this, and I understand unity is that we are of one mind and one accord.

This I believe is the Unity we are NOW called to:
Colossians 2:

4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Who we are and what we are is NOW IN CHRIST Alone. What was to have been??? is not, and what is to be is NOW.

Is this Chambers or Ormly?


Quote:
Supposing Adam had transformed the natural life into the spiritual by obedience, what would have happened? Transfiguration; he would have “spiritualised” the natural life and made it all that God wanted it to be.



It's the What God wanted it to be that we are not of the same accord.

If as you say Ormly, that you said every knee would have bowed and confessed Adam 1 to be Lord to the Glory of the Father, this is where I must in obedience to the scriptures just posted, depart from this conversation. For me and my conscience NOW IN CHRIST, I am to love the LORD MY GOD, with all my Heart Mind Soul and Spirit.


Quote:
The natural life is neither good nor bad, moral nor immoral; it is the principle within that makes it good or bad, moral or immoral".



The natural NOW is fallen and sin. There is not a *principle* within me that makes me anything,

It is CHRIST IN ME ONLY that has put to death the moral AND immoral, and made me a NEW Creation In Christ Jesus.

Jesus DID NOT come on the *same* platform as Adam I, as Jesus, God incarnate, born of a virgin, took upon Him sin, SHED HIS BLOOD, for the forgivness of sin, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father.... a place NEVER reserved for Adam 1.

Gotta Go!

Katy-did

Added. Edited

We are saved by ONE principle ALONE, and that is FAITH in Jesus Christ, for what HE and HE alone did at Calvary. To God be the Glory for all the things *HE* HAS DONE...MY LORD and My God...from eternity past to eternity future! Who was and is and always will be...the Great I AM.



 2007/8/29 10:58









 Re:

End this Katy. I'm done.

Sorry.
-------------------------------------

I offer this for everyone's consideration:

The "work of Cross" is for the creation of saints. The "way of the Cross" is for their perfection.

Before Adam's Transgression, the "work of the Cross" was not necessary. Seeing that the "way of the Cross" can only be between sinless beings, i.e., sinless man with God responding to his willingness to renounce himself, his will, Adam could have freely participated, that is until he transgressed. He disqualifed himself from the priviledge of becoming all what the Father intended for him, i.e., son-ship, heir-ship and ultimately throne-ship. There could be no more "making of saints" since the "work of the Cross" was now needed for that purpose. 4G yrs. man waited for the advocate Adam never had.
Enter Jesus, the last Adam and by His Obedience-Allegiance, reconciled the world to the Father. This was the WORK that restores man to the condition Adam, by his trangression, interrupted. We can now become what was intended for Adam because of the Blood of the Lamb shed for us.

That is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not all, but the main part.

This is what Paul understood when he said this:

"with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live [b]of the Son of God[/b], who did love me and did give himself for me" Galatians 2:20 (YLT)

This is the "sinlessness" in which he functioned throughout his missionary life. This is also why John could say that one, in this Spiritual condition; this intimate relationship, could not sin.

 2007/8/29 11:16





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