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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Jesus, First of First Fruits

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 Re:

Ormly, would you explain to me, how, if Adam had accomplished his purpose in taking up his cross and through that we would be like Jesus was in the flesh? Doen't the cross mean death? Even to US woh believe, doesn't our cross or identification with Christ mean death? Our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life was once for all. Our history in our old adam ended once and for all. What history would have ended for Adam?

This Joy that was set before Jesus Christ, are you saying the same Joy was set before Adam? So in essence you are saying Adam 1 failed, and Adam 2 didn't, both having the same mission, same purpose and same end result?

Concerning Jesus enduring the Cross, the Scriptures say:

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 5:
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So Adam 1 was suppose to be the author of eternal salvation?


Concerning your question "WE", I presume was Paul and the Apostles, but mostly Paul who was entrusted with the Gospel according the the MYSTERY, Romans 16:25-27, that he more fully developed through out all his epistles. He says those who become of Full Age (or maturity in Christ understand this Mystery.) We, at least I know in Colosians 1 the Mystery is Christ In You, the hope of GLORY.

Even if adam had never sinned, and taken whatever way of the Cross of denying self, would God have highly exalted him, and given him a name above every name, crowned him with Glory, that all after Adam would now bow to Adam in his obedience unto death of a cross and call him King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

But you seem to be suggesting this was to happen by way of Adam entering his transfiguration or glorification.

Anyway Ormly, I'm really tired of this discussion. I've tried every way I know to play out the detail of your intrepretation in my mind, and all scripture tells me is , in the end we would be worshiping Adam 1 who would be the author and finisher of our eternal salvation, and then we could instead say: To Adam 1 be the Glory. Someone the Father, Son and Holy Spirit created out of the dust of the earth????? Is that how it was MEANT to be?

Well, guess what, NOW we're sinners, and NOW we can worship GOD, the second person in the Trinity who got the job done right.

Gotta Go Ormly,
Love In Christ
Katy-did


PS: Ormly, Just another question? Was it also in God's original plan tht Adam & Eve after their transfiguration ...that is if all was to go as planned, were they to have offspring and would their offspring also be transfigured or glorified beings on the earth? Are we, once glorified going to have offspring? If so, why? If not Why? Wasn't that in God's original plan anyway? If it was His first plan as you say, why not in this one as well?

 2007/8/28 18:01









 Re:

Quote:
in the end we would be worshiping Adam 1 who would be the author and finisher of our eternal salvation, and then we could instead say: To Adam 1 be the Glory. Someone the Father, Son and Holy Spirit created out of the dust of the earth????? Is that how it was MEANT to be?



That was the intent.

And by pro-creation Father would had His vast family of son's. Because Adam failed, redemption of the family became necessary. Enter the man, Jesus.

 2007/8/28 18:48









 Re:

The word "transfigured" is a very interesting word. The Greek word is "metamorpho" and it means to transform, literally or figuratively to metamorphose, or to change. The word is a verb that means to change into another form. It also means to change the outside to match the inside. The prefix "meta" means to change and the "morphe" means form. In the case of the transfiguration of Jesus Christ it means to match the outside with the reality of the inside. To change the outward so that it matches the inward reality. Jesus' divine nature was "veiled" (Hebrews 10:20) in human form and the transfiguration was a glimpse of that glory. Therefore, the transfiguration of Jesus Christ displayed the Shekinah glory of God incarnate in the Son. The voice of God attesting to the truth of Jesus' Sonship was the second time God's voice was heard. The first time was at Jesus' baptism into His public ministry by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:7; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22).

Therefore, the transfiguration of Jesus Christ was a unique display of His divine character and a glimpse of the glory, which Jesus had before He came to earth in human form. This truth is emphasized for us in a passage in the Apostle Paul's letter to Phillippi. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form (morphe) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form (morphe) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:5-11).

The Son of God came to earth in the form of a man to be the true servant of God and to gift mankind with the greatest gift ever given, eternal life. The transfiguration of Jesus Christ was a visible sign in the presence of reliable witnesses of the reality of the power of God and the glory, which is Christ Jesus.

 2007/8/28 19:21









 Re:

Quote:
And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:5-11).



soooooo what you are saying then is in God's original plan (gone sour), All would then be saying

"That at the name of Adam I every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Adam I is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" ?????

I had no Idea! Thanks for the info.

Is this also the views and opinion of SI?

Colossians 1:15-17

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.





In Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/28 19:46









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Quote:
And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:5-11).



Quote:
soooooo what you are saying then is in God's original plan (gone sour), All would then be saying

"That at the name of Adam I every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Adam I is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" ?????



Thats right.

Quote:
I had no Idea! Thanks for the info.

Is this also the views and opinion of SI?



Your welcome

 2007/8/28 20:10









 Re:

Ormly, do you have any scrupture to back up what you are saying
My Bible says
Colossians 1:15-17

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

This could NEVER HAVE BEEN Adam I's destiny, never in anyone's wildest imagination.

Your are saying,

Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End First and Last was an after thought? Jesus the same yesterday, today and tomorrow was an after thought?

Ormly, is this in the "Book of Adam" or something. Can you tell me where you have gotten this information and facts. I need scripture.

Katy-did


 2007/8/28 20:20









 Re:

I asked you awhile back if you thought God created Adam to fail. You never answered my question.

 2007/8/28 20:47









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly, do you have any scrupture to back up what you are saying
My Bible says
Colossians 1:15-17



If you understand the scriptures you will understand what Adam was purposed to accomplish, unless you believe God created him to fail. It's not rocket science.

Quote:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:



That was Adam.

Quote:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:



Yep, that speaks of Christ alright. But Christ wasn't a Son. He was the Word, the very expression of the Father. Jesus was the Son. Adam was a son, too.

Quote:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.



Yep. That is still speaking of Christ, the Word.

Quote:
This could NEVER HAVE BEEN Adam I's destiny, never in anyone's wildest imagination.



It was always Adam's destiny. If you can believe the Christ of Glory came to Earth to inhabit a human body why can't you believe it could have been Adam's if Adam had remained faithful. He inhabited Jesus' because Adam failed.

Quote:
Your are saying,

Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End First and Last was an after thought?



That is speaking of Christ, regardless of whether or not He ever came to Earth to redeem man and restore him to the "way of the Cross" to son-ship.

Quote:
Jesus the same yesterday, today and tomorrow was an after thought?



That is now a fact. The Christ of Glory now permently inhabits the body of Jesus because Jesus overcame in His Human life. However, it was intended to be Adam that that was to accomplished.

Quote:
Ormly, is this in the "Book of Adam" or something. Can you tell me where you have gotten this information and facts. I need scripture.



No, You just need to understand the scripture you paste up for me to understand.


 2007/8/28 21:05









 Re:

Ormly, I believe God cannot lie, so If Jesus Christ was the creator of ALL things as (I posted previously), by Him and for Him, and if He wanted to create someone not to fail, He would have done just that.

He created a man, just that, a human being with a will to choose. If we know God KNOWS the beginning from the end...then He KNEW Adam would fail.

Just as I believe in whosoever will may come. I don't believe that man does not have free choice even today. Which would be along the same lines, right. But God KNOWS who will and who won't chose Him.

The thought that Adam was created to fail, is along the same line of those who believe those God doesn't want were created to fail also. I don't believe this at all.

There are still mysteries we are not privy to, and may take all of eternity for us to grow into that understanding.

All I do know is, God cannot lie, and what was forordained *before the foundation of the world* was His Church taken from among sinners.

If this was for-ordained *before* the foudation of the world, even before Adam & Eve, and we were(the Church) Chosen **IN CHRIST**, then to say otherwise would be calling God a liar. I can't do that.

No where in Scripture does it even imply Jesus Christ was an after thought.

And again, there would have always been that pesty little serpent running lose. How was that or the 1/3 of the angels who left their first estate to have been resolved? Was Adam I to have achieved that mission too? No where in Scripture is anything like that spoken of. If man were lower than the angels, and man was only given dominion of the earth, not angels, or satan, how was that to be accomplished with out the power and might to go with it. Were they promised power and might equal to God himself?

Ormly, we need to be very careful not to add to scripture what simply is not there. We will all give an account one day for all that we teach, and teachers are warned that they will have a greater punishment. I only go by what the Bible teaches, and if it's not there, it's not there for a reason.

That's the best answer I can give you.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/28 21:20









 Re:

:-(

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly, I believe God cannot lie, so If Jesus Christ was the creator of ALL things as (I posted previously), by Him and for Him, and if He wanted to create someone not to fail, He would have done just that.

He created a man, just that, a human being with a will to choose. If we know God KNOWS the beginning from the end...then He KNEW Adam would fail.

Just as I believe in whosoever will may come. I don't believe that man does not have free choice even today. Which would be along the same lines, right. But God KNOWS who will and who won't chose Him.

The thought that Adam was created to fail, is along the same line of those who believe those God doesn't want were created to fail also. I don't believe this at all.

There are still mysteries we are not privy to, and may take all of eternity for us to grow into that understanding.

All I do know is, God cannot lie, and what was forordained *before the foundation of the world* was His Church taken from among sinners.

If this was for-ordained *before* the foudation of the world, even before Adam & Eve, and we were(the Church) Chosen **IN CHRIST**, then to say otherwise would be calling God a liar. I can't do that.

No where in Scripture does it even imply Jesus Christ was an after thought.

And again, there would have always been that pesty little serpent running lose. How was that or the 1/3 of the angels who left their first estate to have been resolved? Was Adam I to have achieved that mission too? No where in Scripture is anything like that spoken of. If man were lower than the angels, and man was only given dominion of the earth, not angels, or satan, how was that to be accomplished with out the power and might to go with it. Were they promised power and might equal to God himself?

Ormly, we need to be very careful not to add to scripture what simply is not there. We will all give an account one day for all that we teach, and teachers are warned that they will have a greater punishment. I only go by what the Bible teaches, and if it's not there, it's not there for a reason.

That's the best answer I can give you.

Love in Christ
Katy-did



Well that certainly is your opnion you are free to express. I don't agree with it based on my understanding of the scriptures which I know I do not violate anyone's sensibilities. If it does yours then consider yourself the exception and you will have to forgive me.

We will have to leave it at that.

 2007/8/28 21:54





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