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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: First fruits

The first man Adam was made a [u]living soul[/u];
The last Adam was made a [u]quickening spirit[/u].

Quote:
Your reference to the "Breath of Life" given Adam I see as a type of the "Breathing upon them" in the upper room in John 20.22 by Jesus. In both cases Life was administered.



You know, you might have something there in the running dispute over all that was meant by that and the latter tarrying until the Holy Spirit was poured out ... a very interesting correlation.

Think I am begging to see some of where you are going with this. It takes some concentration and even more musing and could easily be derailed by being too didactic. In it is the whole of the matter of the 'will' and the freedom of decision making at the outset ...
Quote:
There is an element of LOVE-ALLEGIANCE-VISION-JOY, that would have been in the mix. What he did have was "a daily walk" WITH the Divine and obedience was the only thing he could give God.



Yes, to me, there is an awe of mystery and of love given by God by the very testing ... was it reciprocal? Proven by obedience less required in the right understanding than that of ... willingness.

Of course to really magnify all of this to even higher reaches is;

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

[b]before the foundation of the world[/b]; for all God's decrees and appointments, relating either to Christ, or his people, are eternal; no new thoughts, counsels, and resolutions, are taken up by him in time. The affair of redemption by Christ is no new thing; the scheme of it was drawn in eternity; the persons to be redeemed were fixed on; the Redeemer was appointed in the council and covenant of peace; and even the very Gospel which proclaims it was ordained before the world, for our glory. A Saviour was provided before sin was committed, and the method of man's recovery was settled before his ruin took place; and which was done without any regard to the works and merits of men, but is wholly owing to the free and sovereign grace of God, and to his everlasting love, both to the Redeemer and the redeemed. The Jews (h) reckon the name of the Messiah among the seven things that were created before the world was; in proof of which they mention, Psa_72:17 but was manifest in these last times for you; he was before, he existed from everlasting; he lay in the bosom of his Father from all eternity: and was veiled and hid under the shadows of the ceremonial law, during the legal dispensation; but in the fulness of time was manifest in the flesh, and more clearly revealed in the Gospel, and to the souls of men; his manifestation in human nature is principally intended, and which was in the last times of the legal dispensation, at the end of the Jewish world or state, when a new world, or the world to come, took place. It is a rule with the Jews (i), that whenever the last days or times are mentioned, the times of the Messiah are designed: and this manifestation of Christ was for the sake of some particular persons, even for all God's elect, whether among Jews or Gentiles, and who are described in the following verse. The Alexandrian copy reads, "for us"; and the Ethiopic version, "for him",

(h) T. Bab. Pesachim, fol. 59. 1. & Nedarim, fol. 89. 2. (i) Kimchi in Isa. ii. 2.

Gill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I may well be just extrapolating off from your line of thought


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/8/26 12:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Yes, to me, there is an awe of mystery and of love given by God by the very testing ... was it reciprocal? Proven by obedience less required in the right understanding than that of ... willingness.



How could it not be reciprocal, if I read you corrcetly?

"And Samuel said, ..... Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." 1 Samuel 15:22 (KJV)

Unless by coersion, willingness to obey must be viewed as non-sacrificial since there must be a motivation to wit willingness must be from the freewill of man. Is this not what God is looking for. Jesus had such motivation that, when IN Him, is in us.

 2007/8/26 12:52









 Re:

Quote:
Katy-did, what do you think Jesus means when He says, "Take up your cross and follow me."?




Nile, I have no problem with OUR NOW, taking up our cross and following Jesus Christ, However that was not the issue. Ormly seems to be saying Adam and Eve were also to take up their Cross and follow before they fell int sin and that would have kept them fro m sinning......THAT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL.....

That was my ONLY question to Ormly, and I wanted him to clarify what he was saying and exactly where that teaching leads to.

Isn't this what the Blogs are for, explaining yourself, or is it just putting anything down without scripture to back it up, saying take it or leave it, it's true because I said so....

Now being accused of hi-jacking this blog with the TRUTH, the Moderator here is not seeing the error or Ormly's message.

If adam & Eve Never Sinned, had taken up A CROSS( WHAT CROSS??) to enter some sort of Transfiguration, and have that dominion over the whole world or the Garden of Eden, would mankind STILL be running naked through the Garden? For all eternity?

It's called Dominion Theology that has really hi-jacked the blog here and a failure to see the dangers of adding to scripture what is not there and will never be there.

God saw from before the foundation of the world those "IN CHRIST", seated with Him in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus, not eternal humans running naked through the Garden of Eden for all eternity.

Christ means Messiah...Savior...Redeemer...the Annointed ONE. Obviously we must have needed a Redeemer,Savior,Christ, Messiah to be REDEEMED from a sin status to begin with.

But My apologies for interrupting and rebuking false doctrine.

Carry on!

Katy-did

 2007/8/26 13:36









 Re:

I will say one last thing here and I do hope ynd pray you will read this and meditate upon it.


Who is Christ, and who is Adam?


Christ Is Far Greater Than Adam

The main point here is that what Christ has done for all who are in him is far greater than what Adam did for all who were in him.

The obedience of Christ is parallel, but vastly superior, to the disobedience of Adam.
The righteousness imputed to those who are in Christ is parallel, but vastly superior, to the sin imputed to those who are in Adam because of his disobedience.

The life that comes to us who are in Christ through that imputed righteousness is parallel, but vastly superior, to the death that comes to those who are in Adam through that imputed sin.
The point is the obedience of Christ, an through HIS obedience ALONE, HE has Preeminence of ALL creation,

Colossians 1:17-19
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

*******18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Majorly Important verses here.

How was this to come to pass?

Adam Is a *Type*

Romans 5

Please be sure to see for yourselves that Paul does indeed intend to draw out a parallel here between Adam and Christ. Look at verse 14. I just want to get one crucial preliminary point from verse 14:

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, WHO IS A *TYPE* OF HIM WHO WAS TO COME." Now that last phrase is what I want you all to see. That is the hinge on which the whole paragraph swings. Adam is a "type" of him who is to come. Adam is a type of Christ. Adam was never going to be anything like Christ and was never promised to be anything like Christ. *And all the Fulness was never promised to dwell with Adam and Eve even if they never sinned.

What does "type" mean? It means PATTERN, just as it says in Hebrews "pattern." Adam was a pattern of Christ who was to come. He was an example, or a foreshadowing, or a prefiguring of Christ. Just as the Tabernacle in the OT was to be built after the PATTERN of Heaven and built EXACTLY as God had said.

EVE is a TYPE of Church, taken from Adam's side, bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh. Just as WE are joined together with Christ in this mystical union as One with Him, and raised a New Creation in HIM ALONE.

Thank You for listening,

My last comment here the LORD placed on my heart to post.

Love in Christ
Katy-did


 2007/8/26 15:40
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Nile, I have no problem with OUR NOW, taking up our cross and following Jesus Christ, However that was not the issue. Ormly seems to be saying Adam and Eve were also to take up their Cross and follow before they fell int sin and that would have kept them fro m sinning......THAT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL.....



Ok, I understand you.

When Ormly talks about Adam and Eve talking up their cross, he is talking about a way of life. It means to deny-self and live unto God. Would you that agree Adam and Eve were to deny themselves and live unto God?


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/26 17:39Profile









 Re:

:-(

Quote:

Nile wrote:
Quote:
Nile, I have no problem with OUR NOW, taking up our cross and following Jesus Christ, However that was not the issue. Ormly seems to be saying Adam and Eve were also to take up their Cross and follow before they fell int sin and that would have kept them fro m sinning......THAT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL.....



Ok, I understand you.

When Ormly talks about Adam and Eve talking up their cross, he is talking about a way of life. It means to deny-self and live unto God. Would you that agree Adam and Eve were to deny themselves and live unto God?




Ah, Youth. I love it..... :-D

 2007/8/26 22:21









 Re:

Quote:
When Ormly talks about Adam and Eve talking up their cross, he is talking about a way of life. It means to deny-self and live unto God. Would you that agree Adam and Eve were to deny themselves and live unto God?




Nile, I will answer this one last time so we do understand one another.

Here again is what I objected to with Ormly's comment, completely different then what he is proposing now, trying to laugh it off by saying:

[b]Ah, Youth. I love it..... [/b]


Let me post here again Ormly's words:

Quote:
This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh




THIS was and IS my final answer to this comment NOT in scripture, and why it completely OPPOSES anything scripture teaches:
I believe some here may have forgotten this, and have been carried away with *another* gospel.

It’s the Spirit of Live in Christ that has set us free from the law of sin and death. That Spirit of Life IN CHRIST is ETERNAL Life, never to be lost again. Those who have it will not be beguiled by the serpent and find death again. Christ has won that victory for us over Satan. He who is IN YOU is stronger than he who is in the world….and satan(the serpent) was in the world before the fall, and after the fall, and will not be completely dealt with until the very end. We may be tempted by satan now, but we don’t LOSE our salvation. If that were so, then ALL Christ accomplished would be one big joke.


That is the reason why those who have been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ are in a far more blessed condition than was Adam before he fell. Adam before he fell was righteous in the sight of God, but he was still under the possibility of becoming unrighteous. Those who have been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ not only are righteous in the sight of God but they are beyond the possibility of becoming unrighteous. In their case, the probation is over. It is not over because they have stood it successfully. It is not over because they have themselves earned the reward of assured blessedness which God promised on condition of perfect obedience. But it is over because Christ has stood it for them; it is over because Christ has merited for them the reward by His perfect obedience to God’s law.

But again there is so much more to the Obedience of Christ.

Again let me point out:

The point is the obedience of Christ, an through HIS obedience ALONE, HE has Preeminence of ALL creation, King of King and Lord of Lords.

Colossians 1:17-19
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

*******18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;


"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, WHO IS A *TYPE/figure* OF HIM WHO WAS TO COME." Now that last phrase is what I want you all to see. That is the hinge on which the whole paragraph swings. Adam is a "type" of him who is to come. Adam is a type of Christ. Adam was never going to be anything like Christ and was never promised to be anything like Christ. *And all the Fullness/ or preeminence was never promised to dwell with Adam and Eve even if they never sinned.

Nile, I've posted many articles on the Fellowship of His sufferings. I believe MOST of what I have posted on SI is on that very subject, and how we are conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ through that fellowship.

I won't hijack the blog here to re- post those.

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-did

 2007/8/27 8:38
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Missing

Katy-did,

Just a couple of notes. This is not a 'blog' but a forum for discussion and fellowship, maybe there is little difference in your mind and that is not to be overtly didactic, but there is a difference.

It still seems you are pouring more into all this than what was intended, but beyond that your spirit is not right with these accusations and denouncements.

My earlier quote;

Quote:
Yes, to me, there is an awe of mystery and of love given by God by the very testing ... was it reciprocal? Proven by obedience less required in the right understanding than that of ... willingness.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
How could it not be reciprocal, if I read you corrcetly?

"And Samuel said, ..... Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." 1 Samuel 15:22 (KJV)

Unless by coersion, willingness to obey must be viewed as non-sacrificial since there must be a motivation to wit willingness must be from the freewill of man. Is this not what God is looking for. Jesus had such motivation that, when IN Him, is in us.



Meant from Adam's standpoint. Indeed it is what God would be looking for.

A few pages back ... from Christinyou

Quote:
Ron, I have not read all, but 4 pages are so full of truth as it has been revealed to me that the agreement of that revelation and what is written is so great and wonderful in the face of the revelation power of who this Christ is that has been born again from above in us, the agreement has made my heart soar as an eagle or a sleek smooth beautiful and soaring glider, I speak from experience, as I am a glider instructor.

In Christ: Phillip



Brother, I don't know how I missed this earlier but ... Amen!

One last mention of this highly recommended piece; [url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/download_45.html]The Representative Man[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/8/27 9:01Profile









 Re:

Crsschk,



The letter of James provides an important clue for the shape of the church's witness in the world: "God brought us forth by his word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits (aparchen tina) of his [new] creation" (1.18). The word aparche, which in the New Testament is used for Christ and the Spirit, is here applied to the church.



Quote:
It still seems you are pouring more into all this than what was intended, but beyond that your spirit is not right with these accusations and denouncements




I thought the subject matter on this blog was First fruits?

Yes, the Lord has stirred and troubled my heart and always has when I hear false doctrine. Maybe because I have the Gift of Discernment as well, and out of obedience to the Lord I do what HE askes and places on my heart.

With that, MY heart and conscience do not condemn me in what I see and am saying.

I do hope and pray the Lord will open your eyes andwatch closely extra biblical babbel subtly mixed in with the Word of God.

That troubles my tremendously that that is not addressed, but you want to address me because I have eyes to see something that is very dangerous.

When God breathed into Adam's nostrals the breath of Life, he did NOT breath in the Spirit of Life in Christ that set him free from the law of sin and death. The original Law of Sin ans death was given to Adam & Eve, not Moses. They sinned, we died. The Law of God.


And Crsschk, you said yourself on this blog there are things you never thought of etc,. So you are still in a learning mode yourself, obviously. It wasn't Ormly who even brought up the issue of God breathing into Adam or posted 1 Corinthians 15, but I did, and you replied back to Ormly as though he said it, saying good thought.

Now I read GW North and it was excellent, but GW North himself NEVER made any such statements as Ormly has. THIS is very confusing to me.

Again teh subject here is about firstfruits correct? Adam and Eve were never firstfruits. ****Christ the Firstfruit, 1 Corinthians 15.


So who had hi-jacked the blog here and changed teh subject to obedience? Not I. My thoughts have ALWAYS been on target with the Blog question. I Never Hi Jacked or changed teh Subject.

But concerning Obedience, I did Post that It is Christ's Obedience and our faith in that Obedience. We live by the Faith of Christ, so our obedience is strictly "IN HIM", and Him alone,

*no longer I but Christ IN Me*.
Galatains 2:20&21.

You either Have Christ In You or you Don't. Those who do KNOW it's HIS Power working in and through us, and by faith we are partakers of HIS Divine Nature. 2 Peter 1.

Anyway, don't condemn what you haven't yet come to understand.

With Love In Christ Jesus
Katy-did



 2007/8/27 9:26









 Re:

Interesting the depths of presumptous deception one can sink into and ignoring the iniquity, call it discernment.. We cannot form the mind of Christ if we don't have His Spirit, nor can we interpret/discern His teaching apart from His Spirit.



The principle of the cross was always in the Father's Mind as the way for man to enter His Presence. Both the work of the cross and the way of the cross were from the beginning in the Mind of God. Adam was His first experiment in this.

Jesus was no exception. He possessed the Nature of God from His birth because of His conception however, it was given Him of the Father that He should protect His Heritage [Birthright] by His willingness to abandon Himself to His Father's will, that all things might be perfected in Him..... and for Him....The "way of the Cross" was manifested in Him before the "work of the Cross" was finalized by Him that we might now partake of the same priviledge...

 2007/8/27 9:39





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