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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Your ignorance is showing. That, in itself is not a crime. It, being willful, is



Brother why again do you stoop to personal attacks upon those who differ with you?

You are speaking borderline heresy(Jesus was only a perfect man) which is Arianism, and is what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. Christ must be God and man. The only One who could quench the wrath of the broken Law was God Himself-
Rom 8:3 For [b]what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/b]
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If indeed you are saying that Christ was only a perfect man who provides us an example to be followed, but who does not pay the ransom for His peoples' sins, and redemption, you might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church and earn your way to Heaven, for if Christ has not justified a people to assure them of Heaven, then we are simply given a clean slate that we must in our own effort keep clean.

I am glad to see that your surgery went well, as I did pray for you.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/8/10 13:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
Your ignorance is showing. That, in itself is not a crime. It, being willful, is



Brother why again do you stoop to personal attacks upon those who differ with you?



Why because they ignore the evidence and persist in adhering to what can't be supported. It's that simple. They ignore the evidence. Ignore, as in ignorance.

 2007/8/10 13:37









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:


You are speaking borderline heresy(Jesus was only a perfect man) which is Arianism, and is what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach.



If Christ laid aside His divine attributes to reside in a man, a body prepared for Him, what was He except a man, perfect before His Father.

Quote:
Christ must be God and man. The only One who could quench the wrath of the broken Law was God Himself-



Oh, but He was. But He had to be man, subject to all that men are tempted by, that He then suffer the death of such a one.

Quote:
Rom 8:3 For [b]what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/b]
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



So what in my understanding violates the scripture you post that I might be corrected?

Quote:
If indeed you are saying that Christ was only a perfect man who provides us an example to be followed,



No, Jesus, the man, by His earthly example, provides us with that challenge. The Christ of the Glory was God. Because of the faithfulness of Jesus the man, the Christ of Glory is now forever one with Him. Because of the work of the Cross, He is now in actuality, Jesus Christ, God in Flesh and Bone for all eternity. Up until that became an actuality, Jesus was always subject to failure, given He was a man who was subject to failure. Jesus overcame where Adam failed. He proved Himself faithful and became the first fruits of those who take up the way of the Cross.

Quote:
but who does not pay the ransom for His peoples' sins...



Whoa, Dude!! Where did I say that?

Quote:
I am glad to see that your surgery went well, as I did pray for you.



Thank you. Your prayers are certainly appreciated by me.

 2007/8/10 14:02









 Re:

Can it be seen that the "way of the Cross" was always in the Mind of God from His beginning? If it can be, then the Law and sacrifices can be seen as a "stop gap" measure until Jesus resurrects from the grave, restoring to us the way of the Cross as the means of becoming what Father purposed in Himself, i.e., to have a vast family of sons, full of the Christ of Himself..

"As soon as we begin to examine the foundations of our salvation we are up against the thoughts of God, and as Christians we ought to be busy thinking God’s thoughts after Him. That is where we fall short; we are delighted with the fact that “once I was this, and now I am that,” but simply to have a vivid experience is not sufficient if we are to be at our best for God. It is because of the refusal to think on Christian lines that Satan has come in as angel of light and switched off numbers of God’s children in their head, with the result that there is a divorce between heart and head. There is nothing simpler under heaven than to become a Christian, but after that it is not easy; we have to leave “the word of the beginning of Christ,” and “press on unto full growth.....Sanctification means that our spirit becomes the birthplace of the Son of God."


Chambers, Oswald: Conformed to His Image. London : Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1996, c1950

 2007/8/10 14:22
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
God cannot die. Ergo, Jesus was a totally perfect human being hanging on that tree


Jesus was and is God in the flesh.
Flesh can die, but God can not.

Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.
Physical death, spirit from body - [b]Eccl 12:7[/b] [color=990000]then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.[/color]
[b]James 2:26[/b] [color=990000]as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/color]

Spiritual death, spirit from God - [b]Isa 59:1-2[/b] [color=990000]But your iniquities have [b]separated you between and your God[/b], and your sins have [b]hid his face from you[/b], that he will not hear.[/color]

Jesus died physically & spiritually on the cross while being 100% God/man.
Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
He was separated from God which is spiritual death.
This is a mystery, for how can the trinity be divided; but we must know this fact as true

Jesus died physically (His fleash was separated from His Spirit) when He cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mat 27:50, Luk 23:46, John 19:30.

 2007/8/10 14:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Quote:
Ormly wrote:
God cannot die. Ergo, Jesus was a totally perfect human being hanging on that tree


Jesus was and is God in the flesh.
Flesh can die, but God can not.

Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.
Physical death, spirit from body - [b]Eccl 12:7[/b] [color=990000]then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.[/color]
[b]James 2:26[-/b] [color=990000]as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/color]

Spiritual death, spirit from God - [b]Isa 59:1-2[/b] [color=990000]But your iniquities have [b]separated you between and your God[/b], and your sins have [b]hid his face from you[/b], that he will not hear.[/color]

Jesus died physically & spiritually on the cross while being 100% God/man.



No. He was 100% obedient unto death. God does not require obedience from Himself. He is obedience. He does from Man. Jesus was that Man in whom all righteous was perfected.... by His obedience!

Quote:
Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?



How do arrive at that from what He cried out? What I hear is perfect man, the only begotten Human being of God, crying out after completing all that the Father gave Him to accomplish. Human I declare, not the Christ of Glory.

Quote:
He was separated from God which is spiritual death.


No spiritual death here. That is a distortion since spiritual perfection can never be separated from God. To prove it Jesus arose from the grave under His own power which is a result of equality with the Father. God never stripped Jesus of His Spiritual integrity. He allowed His death but only with it. It needed to be intact that the purpose of God could be accomplished, i.e., restore man to the process of the way of the Cross unto son-ship.

Quote:
This is a mystery,



Not as far as I am concerned.

Quote:
Jesus died physically (His fleash was separated from His Spirit) when He cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mat 27:50, Luk 23:46, John 19:30.



Meaning He gave up His Life as a human who was once full of the Holy Ghost. Indeed, this speaks of His humanity that was full of the Grace of God in all its fullness. Death brought on the separation as only death can do, however, it was only until He set the captives free by His perfect Humanity that Satan couldn't not deny. Coming out of the grave He did so by the unrestricted power of God who greatly lavished upon Him all the attributes He once limited.

 2007/8/10 15:33
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Ormly,

how would you handle Phillipians 2:5-11 in light of your apparent position on Jesus as God prior to the Cross?

 2007/8/10 16:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
Ormly,

how would you handle Phillipians 2:5-11 in light of your apparent position on Jesus as God prior to the Cross?



I believe it is in keeping with my position. This passage is partly responsible for my position. Note the term Christ Jesus and not Jesus Christ. This speaks of not only of what was in Jesus but what is now available to us because of His obedience as a man who respresents mankind who respond and are chosen.

 2007/8/10 16:22
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:

whyme wrote:
Ormly,

how would you handle Phillipians 2:5-11 in light of your apparent position on Jesus as God prior to the Cross?



I believe it is in agreement with my position. This passage is partly responsible for my position. Note the term Christ Jesus and not Jesus Christ. This speaks of not only of what was in Jesus but what is now available to us because of His obedience as a man who respresents mankind who respond and are chosen.




It would seem to me that the passages from Phillipian say that God took the image of man and became a servant ( prior to the Cross ) and therefore, he was God and man during his servanthood ministry while on earth and prior to his obedient work on the cross. Maybe I'm not understanding your point or position on Jesus's Godhood while on earth.

 2007/8/10 16:32Profile









 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:

whyme wrote:
Ormly,

how would you handle Phillipians 2:5-11 in light of your apparent position on Jesus as God prior to the Cross?



I believe it is in agreement with my position. This passage is partly responsible for my position. Note the term Christ Jesus and not Jesus Christ. This speaks of not only of what was in Jesus but what is now available to us because of His obedience as a man who respresents mankind who respond and are chosen.




It would seem to me that the passages from Phillipian say that God took the image of man and became a servant ( prior to the Cross ) and therefore, he was God and man during his servanthood ministry while on earth and prior to his obedient work on the cross. Maybe I'm not understanding your point or position on Jesus's Godhood while on earth.



What do you believe you possess when claiming to be indwelt by His Life? Aside from His mission to restore mankind, is His Life to be any different in you as an individual.

 2007/8/10 16:45





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