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Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re: now that we have that out the way...

Phillip,

[i]"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."[/i] (Galatians 3:7-9)

You seem to have latched onto dispensational doctrine and are preaching it like it is the truth, but you are seriously missing it, brother. It sounds nice, doesn't it, to say that the Old Testament is earthly and works based and that the New Testament is heavenly and all about grace. Sounds great, but it's just not true.

Would you say that Abraham is excluded from the blessing of faith, based on the above passage, but we his children get it but he does not?

To say the things you are saying is like this parable:


[b]THE PARABLE OF THE WICKED BUSINESSMAN[/b]

Once upon a time there was a man who wanted to start a new business. He needed money to begin, so he went door to door collected pre-investments, promising them that when the business began they would have a share in it and receive a profit. Finally he acquired all the money he needed to begin and at last started the business.

Once the business began, other people saw the promising future it held and began to invest into it. So now people were buying shares in the business AFTER it was up and running. Then the businessman did a wicked thing.

The businessman went back on his word and disregarded all those who had invested in the business BEFORE it began. He declared that only those who invested from now on, since it began, would have any share in the profits! This made the new investors happy, but all the old investors were left with nothing! All the money they had given to the businessman to help him start the business was gone and they had no share in it anymore! This was a dirty move... the wicked businessman lied to the pre-investors and never really intended to pay them back!

----

The point is, the Old Testament saints, though they did not get to see Jesus and live in the days of the New Covenant, they still looked forward to that day when Christ would come and give His life for an atonement for their sins and they still looked forward to the day Christ will come again and establish the Kingdom of God on the earth. They placed their faith in Christ even before they knew who exactly He was to be. [i]"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."[/i] (Hebrews 11:13) Though they did not see the promises, they "saw" them at a distance, embraced them and confessed them. How dare we say they have no part in the promises they do dearly anticipated?

Brother, many saints have died not seeing the promise of the Lord's second coming. Does that mean they will not reap the blessing of it, or is that only meant for those alive and remaining?

Bear also in mind that as Gentiles we have been grafted into THEIR promises, and though we may be enjoying them now, they still belong to the Jews and the nation will yet in the future enter into their blessing. To say Israel is cast away is a completely blind statement Phillip, and you are misunderstanding God's plans and purposes, for which HIS glory is at stake.

[i]"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."[/i] (Romans 11:11)


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Eli Brayley

 2007/8/21 14:22Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro Phillip, what does this mean?

Quote:
This Gospel is not in the old testament. National Israel cannot and will not be born again, only individuals that believe that He is Jesus Christ The Only Begotten Son of God.



i assumed one thing but before i respond, i need to be sure what you are talking about. do you mean that the nation of Israel is no longer relevant in God's Plan? do you think that Israel is beyond Salvation in Christ?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/8/21 14:26Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"do you mean that the nation of Israel is no longer relevant in God's Plan?"

Absolutely not. But Israel and the Body of Christ are different. "He came to His own and they received Him not". "The Gospel is sent to the Gentiles and they will hear it." Not because we are better, but because God implimented a new way of Salvation at the Cross.
The old, which is passed away, The Law of Moses and the 10 commandments, the Law of God.
The New, from before the foundation of the world, God's plan included at the Cross and after the "Corn of Wheat fall to the ground and die and bring forth much fruit", That is His Body the Church which is pure Grace by the Faith of Jesus Christ in the believer.

God is not finished with Israel and she will receive all her promises and covenants as God chosen people the children of Israel.

The Body of Christ is receiving God's promises now, for those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Sure the devils believe, but they have already been judged and their belief is overshadowed by the worshiping of their king satan. God's Grace does not extend to them and never will.

Believe and you will be saved. Then God begins His work with His Fathered children. Fathered by placing the Seed incorruptable, that is Jesus Christ His Son in you. "That is Pauls ministry, revealed direct to him by the Son of God, Jesus Himself." Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: The only way an Isrealite can be saved now is to believe like the Gentiles. In Christ their is no Jew or Gentile or any other option of peoples, class or religion. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Not predistinated to heaven or hell but to the "adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself".

Is Israel still in God's hands, absolutely. They will receive all God has promised when Jesus Christ is sitting on the throne of David in the New Jerusalem. We are receiving ours now, and will be with Him when He reigns, we will reign with Him, from our Father's House.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

2 Timothy 2:10-12 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/8/22 2:53Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Hi Phillip,

You are still making a mistake... you are saying Israel has the Law, and the Gentiles have grace. You are associating Israel with the Law but not with the New Covenant. I can't stress this enough that the Gentiles are enjoying ISRAEL'S covenants and promises (Jeremiah 31:31, Romans 9:4-5). They were first given to them.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the promises given to them (of Christ), were hundreds of years before the Law was ever given. No one has ever been saved by the Law (Galatians 3:11); it's always been by grace through faith.

[i][b]"Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? [u]Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[/u]
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 [u]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,[/u]
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 [u]Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.[/u]
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, [u]a seal of the righteousness of the faith[/u] which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 [u]And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.[/u]"[/i][/b]


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Eli Brayley

 2007/8/22 21:59Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

The Church has no covenants and promises except:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We will not dwell on this earth with Israel and her earthly reign. We will reign with Christ in our Father's House the New Jerusalem come down from Heaven, where we are already seated with Christ now.

The only promise to Israel we have received is the Christ that is in us, which Israel did not have and still does not have, only individuals whether Jew or Gentile, make no difference, the individual must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and they will be saved.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

This is our promise. This is our covenant.
"Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/8/23 2:41Profile









 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question



Greetings brethren.

I need to finish reading Ezekiel before I answer again. There is also a question for me in Eli's thread which is exericising my mind.


Bro IRONMAN,

My challenge to you to back up your proposed separation between Jewish believers and gentile believers [u]from the New Testament[/u] awaits.

 2007/8/23 16:12
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

And:

The proposed non-separation of the Children of Israel and the Body of Christ's Church son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/8/23 17:04Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

sis D

you said:

Quote:
My challenge to you to back up your proposed separation between Jewish believers and gentile believers from the New Testament awaits.



what do you mean by proposed separation? do you mean in terms of the manner by which both are Saved or is this a matter of Destiny?

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/23 23:42Profile









 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question


Greetings IRONMAN, :-)

Quote:
what do you mean by proposed separation? do you mean in terms of the manner by which both are Saved or is this a matter of Destiny?

I mean, please use New Testaments text to justify [u]your[/u] proposal that there is a destiny ('destiny' not being a scriptural word) for Jewish believers, separate from that for gentile believers.

I ask, because I have long understood that the destiny of gentile believers is identical in Christ, to what Jewish believers expect to receive. In other words, together (Jewish and gentile believers), we are 'Israel', God's 'chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, [to] proclaim the praises of Him who called [us] out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once [i]were[/i] not a people but [i]are[/i] now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 11 ... sojourners and pilgrims ...' (1 Peter 2)

 2007/8/24 9:38









 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question


Hi Phillip,

Quote:
And:

The proposed non-separation of the Children of Israel and the Body of Christ's Church son's of God.

Brother, I believe you are forgetting that anyone who comes to Christ is born again by the [u]Holy[/u] Spirit, whether they were of Israel before, or of any other first birth.

The second birth, brings them\us into a new 'nation' - a nation which is [u]holy [i]within[/i][/u], as Jesus was.

This was not possible under the Old Covenant when to be 'holy', was signified by the children of Israel's being set apart unto God, through their unique law given to Moses, and beginning with His insistence that they should not commit idolatry.


Therefore, once [u]anyone[/u] is born again, He is a new creature\creation, and either ignorance of the meaning and effect of new birth, (which makes us able to fellowship with our Father in heaven through Christ, explained in Romans 6), or, purely carnal thinking, fosters the belief that the nationality of our [i]first[/i] birth is of significance any more.

It was our first birth which [i]condemned[/i] us. Thus we are glad to be freed from it! And so should Jews be glad to be freed from theirs, because it bears no weight with God once they are born again. It doesn't need to! Now, they are what He has always desired... truly, they are His children by the Spirit.

But, I acknowledge that we do not lose our civil nationality through new birth. However, we should consider ourselves citizens of heaven.

And so, the new 'Israel' is still separated from the world by having been born from above, yet within it the identity of peoples from all tongues, kindreds, tribes and 'nations' gives pleasure to God as He sees the travail of His soul, satisfied.

Thus, the inclusion of gentiles into 'Israel', which was always possible under Old Covenant regulations, has been more than enacted fully.

BECAUSE, there [i]were[/i] certain physical conditions or nationalities which were destroyed and\or excluded-in principle, under the previous Covenant. But, under the NEW Covenant there are [u]no exclusions[/u], as long as a person come through the Door - Jesus Christ. Amen.

 2007/8/24 10:00





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