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 Re: Reply to Sis Dorcas 2 ...


Hello brethren and Forrest,

It's been on my mind today to add to my reply to Rahman, and I need to do that now. But I won't have time to reply to others until late tomorrow.


Bro Rahman,

You said

Quote:
because if all this is is a discussion, and not a concieted (excessive appreciation of one's own worth or virtue - usually at the expense of another) bashing, beat down, or a sort of standing on the neck of the beleguered Jew (Israel) then i bow out, and will just follow the thread as it continues and learn, because the afore mentioned is my primary concern ...

I'm not sure what you are getting at here... and I'd appreciate a little more context... You said 'If all this is is a discussion.... I bow out...' It sounds as if you [i]want[/i] it to be a 'sort of standing on the neck of the ... Jew'... I can't believe that though!

It was really the word 'conceited' which caused me to pull out this paragraph, in case you're telling me I sound conceited?


Perhaps after I've given my next two points, you'll see more where I'm coming from. And I do hope you find this lining up with scripture too.

(I'm aware I owe Eli another reply; other points may be covered there.)

I said
Quote:
The second is, that gentiles are admitted to all its benefits without exception, on the same basis as Israel, namely, faith.

I would contrast this a bit more clearly with the Old Covenant, because I realised as I shut down my computer, that of course, gentiles could come under the Old Covenant too.... by [i]becoming[/i] (outwardly) Jewish.... they had to be circumcised, live in the Jewish religious culture and be counted as if they had been [i]born[/i] [u]Jewish[/u].


I think this is where there has been another glitch in some people's thinking... that somehow, gentiles [i]still[/i] effectively 'become Jewish', through entering into faith with Jesus Christ. This is why the lie is being peddled, that gentiles join 'the Jews' when they come to God. No they don't. They are joined to Christ, just like Jews are, when they - any of them - Jews or gentiles - come to God.

But what I was trying to say earlier, is that now, both Jews and gentiles each can come [u]directly to God[/u], through the man Jesus Christ, the one mediator between God and man - our great High Priest [i]without a human priesthood offering ritual sacrifices to [/i]cover sin[i], but which were [u]not[/u] good enough for us to be forgiven[/i]. (All this is in Hebrews... yes?)


This is why there was such a discussion about whether gentiles [i]ought[/i] to be circumcised, in the early Church - because it had used to be part of the ritual of becoming Jewish, [u]in order to be blest[/u].

Now though, we [i]all[/i] who enter the New Covenant, become circumcised in the way God really desires - in heart - and please Him alone.

Whether from a Jewish, physically circumcised line, or a gentile line, physical circumcision means [u]nothing[/u]... only the circumcision of the heart.

Rahman said
Quote:
i don't think our all knowing God is ever under an "impression" ... i think that's our realm ... He always knows for sure ...

True. He wears His heart on His sleeve though... which is one of the reasons He used to get so disappointed. There is a bit of that to be detected in Exodus, when He seemed to think the Hebrews would want to see Him... but that was the last thing on their minds (Exo 19:24).

Quote:
Bless you sis in the wonderful light of our calling! ...

Thank you. I should have acknowedged this kind word sooner. I'm sorry. I hope you also are being blessed in this discussion, and your ministry. :-D

 2007/8/11 18:52
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 The Well of Eternal Depth...and the curveballs which come out of it...

bro Jay

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:


Quote:
Here is where we begin to separate. I understand that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles just as there is a difference between Males and Females. However, scripture is clear that when it comes to the promises of God 'there is no distinction.'

Galatians 3:27-29
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.



i agree with the scripture fully in that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ. However the above scripture doesn't say "heirs [i][b]of[/b][/i] the Promise" but rather "heirs [i][b]according to[/b][/i] the Promise" There is a difference. The Promise in question here is that of Salvation. God said He would make Abraham's descendants like the stars in the sky. This is talking of Redemption through Christ. There are indeed things which we inherit but the Chief thing is not what we inherit but [i][b]how[/b][/i] this comes to being and it is according to the Promise which God made to Abraham. That being said let me speak once more on the issue of the Distinct Destiny of Israel even in Election. to be sure, there is also a Distinct Destiny for Gentiles also. it is along the same lines as i had outlined in my last post, [i][b][color=0000CC]you are Jay and God has determined a destiny for you which i being Farai can't fulfil and vice versa[/color][/b][/i]

Quote:
It is interesting that you mentioned the 144,000 because I was just reading in The Apocalypse Code by Hank Hanagraaff about this being the most misunderstood number in the bible. For example, Tim Lahaye says that these 144,000--exactly that number--are Jewish men who have not defiled themselves with women and have a visible mark on their foreheads and are virgins.



well indeed Dr. Lahaye is mistaken concerning this number, it would seem also that to a degree bro Hank is also mistaken concerning this number. There are 2 sets of 144000, the first being 12000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel and these are not said to be virgins. The 144000 which are the firstfruits from the earth however are said to be virgins not having defiled themselves with women. These are 2 distinct numbers, the former comprising of Jews, the latter Gentiles, both of which couldn't be called out apart from Christ. So Israel's 144000 is should not be viewed as being a cirsumcision of the flesh only but it is also a circumcision of the Spirit, it is both, not either or. The Multitude does include both peoples having been redeemed from the earth. This multitude is indeed every saint from the first to the last...however the trib is yet going on and people are dying for Christ...a little discrepancy there. The thing is, the Revelation is not strictly a chronological account as we understand it, consider the Source. God Himself. He sees past present and future all before Him at once. If we fail to see this, we end up with weird ideas about what is going on. people place the saints in Heaven before the trib is over but this isn't how it plays out. However at the same time, Paul says we are seated with Christ in Heavenly Places already...

Perhaps we also ought not forget that Israel is betrothed to the Father but the Church is betrothed to Christ, a distinction in destiny.

Quote:
Also, why would there be anymore need of a Temple now that Christ has secured redemption?What kind of sacrifices would be offered in a Temple since Christ was the atonement 'once for all'?



i think the idea that the temple was simply the place for making sacrifices is an oversimplication of the function of the temple. It was also a gathering place and much more happened there than sacrifices. To me this reflects a shallowness on our part and a failiure to understand what God is trying to communicate to us using that model and also the complexity surrounding the temple and its purpose in Judaism. Granted we are not Jews but if we understand well the old Covenant, we have a better appreciation for the new one. We know Christ was the sacrifice for sin which atoned for all our sin but i would ask does that invalidate all the other sacrifices which have nothing to do with sin? something to consider?There were offerings made to God on various feast days and such, are all those done away with as yet or is there a place for them yet?

People learned at the temple, people fellowshipped there and so on. The temple is to be rebuilt that it may be defiled as God said through Daniel concerning the making of a covenant with the people for a week and then breaking it halfway through.

Just when we think we have it figured out...God throws a curveball...Ezekiel says that the temple of God will be rebuilt. If we look at Ezekiel 36, it speaks of Israel being restored to the land. This particular restoration seems very much to be final. What God does when He brings Israel back is He cleanses her completely from her iniquity and makes the land like Eden. i found that peculiar and our Lord asked me if i had ever seen Eden. i haven't, and indeed nobody has who is alive today. So what shall happen in Israel is that the land will look unlike anything anyone has ever seen before. This is yet future. Then in Ezekiel 37 there is the famous "dry bones" episode. in it God says some interesting things, like this:


[b]23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.[/b] and this: [i][b]24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.[/b][/i]

who is this David who will rule these people forever? could it be our Lord Jesus? Could it be that this is the point at which Israel steps into the Blessedness of Salvation in Jesus? to me this seems to be a future thing since the last Davidic king was Zedekiah, the same who was taken into captivity by the babylonians. At present i don't think we can say the Davidic King rules over Israel as yet whether we think this is literal, symbolic of Christ, or both which i believe. and what about this?

[b]26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. [/b]

Then in Ezekiel 40 he begins to speak about the temple and between chapters 40-48 Ezekiel makes mention of this prince who rules over Israel who helps with making sacrifices to the Lord. He seems to be a man of very high standing...anyhow i believe Ezekiel is speaking of the 3rd temple which has yet to be built because Israel has not yet been restored per the Ezekiel 36 outline which God has made plain.

i believe that the temple is our body and we are to be living stones in His temple but there seems to me to be a broader context of this temple and perhaps a part of it is a very literal one like say Solomon's. the more i look at the word, the more i see that its proper interpretation is less and less a matter of "either or" but is something Manifold. such that when i discuss with brethren differing views, where some see it as either the way they understand it or the highway, i see by brother's point and that which God has shown me as being part of the much much bigger picture of scripture which we're not even scratching the surface of yet. i was meditating yesterday on this very thing and our Lord showed it to me that we have an overinflated view of ourselves and this translates into all we put our efforts to. When it comes to God and scripture, we think we have the lock often times and are not open to seeing that there is more out there. The depth of God is incomprehensible. bro Jay i see your points, however like my own, they are part of something which is on a scale beyond our combined comprehension. i hope you see that also.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/12 1:24Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 the Temple...the meaning of this too is Manifold...and the temple is not yet obsolete.

sis Dorcas

Greetings in Jesus Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
Brother IRONMAN, I believe this is where John's interpretations of the temple being His Body, is a key elucidation for New Covenant believers.

Peter picks up on the living stones right early in Acts and again in his epistles, and Paul also refers to the Church as His temple.



yes you are very right that we are the Temple of God and the Temple of the Holy Spirit of God. However there is also a very real sense of there being a physical temple building also. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:

[b]3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [/b]

This i believe corresponds to Daniel 9:27:

[b]27 And he shall confirm the covenant F70 with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [/b]

Now there has never been a covenant of such a kind with the Jewish people as yet. When Titus came in 70 and destroyed the temple, it was not in the midst of any kind of treaty with Israel which was violated as stated in the above verse in my estimation. It is interesting to note that there are oblations being made in this period. this means there has to be a physical temple.Jesus speaks of this abomination which causes desolation in the gospel. Some have said He was speaking of Titus but when we observe what Daniel was saying, we see there is a covenant made by this man with many for a week which is violated in the middle of it by him setting himself up to be worshipped as God in His temple. so there is also a place for a literal temple in all this eschatological mix.

Even in the Revelation there is mention of both us as saints being pillars and stones in the temple of GOd but there is also a clear mention of a physical temple.

Revelation 11 says:

[b]1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, F11 and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. [/b]

Even in Heaven there is a temple, God's Temple which is only rendered obsolete in Revelation 21 which is after the enemy has been cast into the lake of fire along with every evil and wicked person and thing.

[b]22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.[/b]

If we are the temple, what becomes of us when there is no longer a need for the temple as stated in Rev 21? Now we know we are the temple of the HOly Spirit while we are here but it seems there is no need for this arrangement any more in heaven. There is a Physical Temple in heaven even now from which the angels will go forth with the wrath of God in bowls. This will be rendered obsolete when the enemy is finally vanquished after the 1000 yrs.

so what shall we say then sis? are we the temple of God? Yes we are! i agree with your point completely and scripture testifies to it! However scripture also testifies to there being a need for a physical temple because there is yet a future role for it in God's Eschatological Plan so we can't toss out this notion simply because we see we are the temple of God. That is a Mighty thing but it is a part of something even Bigger. as i said to bro Jay, i see your point clearly, but it is a part of something so much bigger...what God has shown you concerning this matter isn't the whole picture, there is so much more. i see a duality here, a physical and spiritual thing going on simultaneously which i can't ignore either part of but i bless God i am able to see both a bit better now.

i bless God for this place called S.I.! the more i interact with you my dear brethren, the more i am quickened to the Eternal Context of Scripture and the Grandeur of our God as Reflected in His word and His Plan which He is unfolding before us all. i see more and more that it is not a matter of 1 view vs another but rather your view which God has given you + that which God has given me= a better view of what God is working out. i pray God we begin to see things like this because i feel this is to truly see things from His Perspective, this is what it is to be in Heavenly Places with Christ Jesus and to see all from His Vantage Point. What a blessed Place this is!

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/12 2:05Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Manifold Interpretations

Saints,

I too keep seeing a many folded message in Revelation...for the life of me, I can't help but seeing more than one [i]rapiemur[/i] or Rapture mentioned, and I keep seeing the 6th judgements of the seals, the trumpets and the vials, pretty much all being the same.

[color=993300]Rev. 6:11. [b]And white robes were given unto every one of them;[/b] and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. [u]For the great day of his wrath is come;[/u] and who shall be able to stand?

Rev. 11:12. [b]And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither.[/b] And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, [u]and thy wrath is come,[/u] and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev. 16:15. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: [u]and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.[/u]
20. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.[/color]


Being of a pre-trib history, and being pre-wrath based, I pray to get out of the way of the beast as soon as the Lord will take me, even though a special blessing, of being forever in the temple with Jesus, is given to those that die for not taking the mark.

And if it weren't for the fact that Paul said we would be changed, if alive, before Christ comes, and tells us to comfort each other in times of tribulation with that notion, I couldn't believe in the [i]rapiemur[/i] or Rapture at all.

[color=993300]1 Thess. 4:13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. [b]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/b]
18. Wherefore [i][u]comfort one another[/u][/i] with these words.[/color]

Then on top of all that, I just keep on hearing the 3 sixes's of those three judgements echoing in my head, and have to shudder.

For those of you still hunting through the verses of scripture, and trying to make sense of it all, either pull all the last days verses out of scripture, and look at them together; or, if you can stand to work backwards from an existing view, buy a second hand copy of Tim LaHaye's [u]Revelation Unveiled[/u], read it for a good understanding of the whole pre-trib viewpoint, then work backwards over the verses and prove it wrong.

For Tim LaHaye haters/despisers, his work on the Revelation verses is reasonably sound, the theories also reasonable, except the gap theory, and the theory of dispensationalism, which I can find no basis for, except as a reason to tie all of the pre-trib belief's together. And if you look at nothing else, they do hang together!

Sometimes, it is best to understand the most popular viewpoint out there, in order to diverge from it later.

In fact, it was not being brought up in any church, or in the belief of the pre-trib [i]rapiemur[/i] or Rapture that kept me from from totally believing it.

I had to work awfully hard in my Bible, and every pre-trib book out there to stay in that pre-trib position, and in the end I had to abandon the view, turning to pre-wrath, whenever that is, and to trusting God will be with me.

For all of us, we must be aware of the very real possibility of persecution here in the US, Canada, and Great Britain. We also must be willing to suffer whatever we have to suffer, and still hope in the Lord, that He will deliver us, in whatever way He see's most fitting, whether it is through the [i]rapiemur[/i] or Rapture, or simply by walking with us as we head to our deaths.

And yet, even so, if the Lord choose, I would be more than happy to get out of this world [u]before any 7 year guarantees are signed by a third party with Israel[/u], which if you look over at Israel,and the Middle East, such a treaty doesn't seem out of the question, or very far away in time at all.


Blessings,

Forrest

P.S. For those of you that are aware of me personally, I am going to be temporarily stepping away from my delight in SI, except for popping in daily to pick up and leave messages, although I will probably be tempted to still occasionally take part in some threads.

My website continues, and so does my e-mail, and since my Skype is UniqueWebRev, I am occasionally there as well, and when trying to figure out what to write next, I will probably also have my Skype on.

I will be concentrationing on that book one of you was insane enough to say I should write when you read my testimony in Miracles that Follow the Plow.

Both God and the devil are talking to me about it, so I will have to make an attempt at it, and see what happens. God warned me not to talk about the novel that incorporates my life that He is trying to write through me, but I blew it, talked about it, and now the devil is giving me a very bad time of it.

Please pray that I will write what God want's me to write about...how He stepped repeatedly into my life, and in the end, how He stomped on the devil to save me, and hopefully, will use the example of His grace in my life to help not only my brothers and sisters, but those who do not believe that GOd would ever forgive them.


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/8/12 5:03Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Reply to Sis Dorcas 3 ...



Sis Dorcas you wrote ...
"You make me smile...."

--- Praise God, and you make me wonder, both reactions i believe generated and exercised in His love and peace regarding so intense a topic :-D ---

You wrote ...
"It's not as complicated as it sounds at first."

--- To you maybe, but it is to me which is why i added the prayer that if i'm not understanding
what you're saying, and it's correct, then Lord please enlighten me too ... See i know that under this grafted in period that Romans call "until the fullness of the Gentiles has entered in" there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but i can't get to the conclusion that God the Father is thru with His Bride Israel and His covenants with them (especially regarding the land because He also promised it to Abrahams seed forever) because they're still as a distinct people a central theme in the Revealation during the Trib, Great Trib, the 1,000 year reign of Christ (when we know here for sure that the Church as Christ Bride is complete), and it's end when satan is released once more and who are the first people he goes after? ... Israel ... And what does God do? ... Protects them yet again by sending fire down from heaven ...

See to me saints who believe in Replacement Theology, or saints who just plain believe as you seem to that Abraham's seed has forfeited the benefits of God the Father's covenants because of not keeping up their end of the bargain, are missing the fact that he is the one that said they were everlasting ... That tellm me that there's something more powerful at work here for reasons grant you i don't understand ... Yes i agree with you that we saints under grace enjoy a priveledge (Christ as our one time blood covering) that Israel of old didn't (they only had the blood of animals multiply) and perhaps that's why God the Father gave them such covenants ... Then there's the fact that Romans says that God blinded them to Christ, that we might be grafted in ... All i'm saying is that there seems to be more at work here than what we as humans, even saved, can determine about the relationship between God the Father and His Israel ...

i read on this thread, and others that seem to discard the Jew, that God the Father's covenants with them, are passe ... There are questions about why would there ever be another Temple in Israel after Christ, or the nation of Israel is so dispersed until how could they ever put together another pure Levetical priesthood, or all this talk about broken covenants and so their no longer elegible ... i don't buy it ...

[b][color=CC0000]Sis Dorcas have you ever read the last eight chapters of Ezekiel (40-48): ... These chapters are believed by many Bible Scholars (as well as the footnotes in my Ryrie Study Bible) to occur during the 1,000 year reign of Christ the reason being that ther've been no past fulfilments of this prophecy in Israel, especially regarding a river of living water flowing from ubderneath the east of a rebuilt Temple ... This passage of prophecy speaks of a rebuilt Temple, in full animal sacrifice service for sins, under the overseership of a regathered levite priesthood headed by a Chief Priest (called the prince) ... Not only this, but it sets out anew the borders of the land of Israel to each of the twelve tribes[/color][/b] ... Again i don't buy it, i believe there's still something going on between God the Father and Israel whether we understand it, like it, don't like it, or ever accept it on this side of the Mellinial reign ...

Blessings in our beloved Savior Christ Jesus ...

 2007/8/12 12:02Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Reply to Sis Dorcas 4 ...


Sis Dorcas you wrote;
"I'm not sure what you are getting at here... and I'd appreciate a little more context... You said 'If all this is is a discussion.... I bow out...' It sounds as if you want it to be a 'sort of standing on the neck of the ... Jew'... I can't believe that though!


--- Praise God the bell went off! ... :-P

Of course i don't WANT it to be "a sort of standing on the neck of the Jew", from you or anyone else who believes that Israel has been replaced ... That's why i stated my primary concern was to make sure that it's not because of what:

Re-Quote
"Rom.11: 11 - says "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." ... What i pray for for myself (and all other saints) is that Christ will shine in me/us in such a way as to draw the Jew toward salvation in Him ... i think history shows that we've done a pretty good job of provoking them to "anger" and "rejection", even amongst those now saved ..."

i guess somehow i have an empathy for the Jew that i believe God has put in me, as i can't explain having any other reason for it ... i can't imagine being chosen of God initially to do His bidding without Christ, and having to live under the law, then to be blinded by God to the messiah's coming so that we gentiles could get in, when all prior He's told them we were less than dogs ... Had to be confusing then, has to be confusing now ---


Sis Dorcas you wrote;
"It was really the word 'conceited' which caused me to pull out this paragraph, in case you're telling me I sound conceited?"


--- No i'm not saying that you're concieted, nor anyone else who believes the Jew/Israel passe in God's plan, what i'm doing is calling to mind something God had written in which to check our motives about such beliefs, and if our motive(s) are wrong then He's the One who uses the word "concieted" to warn us of "having excessive appreciation of one's own worth or virtue (grafted in Christian) - usually at the expense of another (side-lined Israel) ... If anyone analytically, and scripturally, believes such totally clinically without any disdain, or feeling superior to the Jew/Israel because we appear in and them out, then i might think you mistaken, but not concieted ... It's not my place to call it, God knows and will deal with it appropriately, my concern again is just to point out what scripture warns about regarding this ---


Sis Dorcas you wrote;
"True. He wears His heart on His sleeve though... which is one of the reasons He used to get so disappointed. There is a bit of that to be detected in Exodus, when He seemed to think the Hebrews would want to see Him... but that was the last thing on their minds (Exo 19:24)."


--- Sis Dorcas, i am very analytical, God knows that sometimes it may be to my fault ... But God
is someone i truly don't understand, and by His grace has brought me to a point where i don't even have to ... But you speak of His being dissapointed, and i know OT Scripture is full of such emotional references of God the Ftaher's reaction to Israel ... But you know what, in my mind, how could our all knowing Father ever be dissapointed when He already knows the outcome of everything? (Christ was slain before the setting of the foundation of the world) ... And i think it's why Paul was inspired to write the following about we Christian's trying to figure out where the Jew/Israel stands in our being grafted in ...

Rom. 11:
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

On some things we speculate ... on all things God knows ... that's why i like what the brother said in the article i posted a little ways back ... "Why can't we the Church be the Church (provoking them to jealousy), and let Israel be Israel ... and the Root will eventually make it all very plain to both camps ...

Blessings in our all knowing and all wise God ...

PS - i sign off in such a way as to try to let all my fellow saints know that no matter how intense the discussion, it never outweighs the love that He commands we ever have for one another :-D ---


 2007/8/12 12:06Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Israel has enetered into the Covenant but...

sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
There is something very small which you are missing in your interpretation of scripture. That is, that Israel entered the New Covenant with God on the day of Pentecost, and just like you are bringing up your children to know the Lord, so did those Israelites who knew Him by the Spirit, bring up their children to know Him.



sis D i know full well Israel did enter into the Covenant already, which is why those Jews who die now without Christ go to hell and await the eternal torment. Could it be perhaps that what i am sharing here may be a missing element to your understanding of scripture concerning this matter?Something to consider perhaps? However Paul clearly says that israel has been blinded for a time until the time of the Gentiles is complete.

from Romans 11:

[b]7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded F41 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, F42 eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. [/b]

God has given them a spirit of slumber at this time.

[i][b]9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway[/b][/i]

[u][i][b]11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. [/b][/i][/u]

Yes they too are in the Covenant but are blinded for your sake and my sake that we may be Saved and then provoke them to Jealousy that they may be awakened. We have yet to achieve this.

[u][i][b]12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing F43 of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?[/b][/i][/u]

dear sister, if Israel's demise at this time benefits us to Mightily in God, how much more shall we all benefit when Israel is grafted back in? Dear sister i long for this because this is the coming together of the Fullness of the Elect of God that we may realize Fully the Glory of God Manifested in and through us all. That is the Fullness of the Israel, Israel being the Church made up of Jew and Gentile.

Quote:
Brother, I can hardly believe you've read the New Testament and still maintain Israel is yet to be saved.... What's going on....???



sis D i could say also i hardly believe you've read the N.T. and think that Israel [i]has[/i] been saved already. i am talking here of Israel in the sense of the Jewish people excluding the Gentiles. What then shall we make of this which Paul said in the letter to the Romans:

from Chapt 9:

[b]1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [/b]

and Chapt 11

[b]26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [/b]

so all Israel is yet to be Saved so that we Gentiles may be grafted in. Note that Paul here is using Israel in the sense of the Jewish nation and excluding the Gentiles. We can't ignore this. Well i could be wrong in how i am seeing this sis and i if this is so, may God set me straight coz God knows i don't want to run around being deluded over anything...what do you think Paul means here?

Quote:
than you one you offer, which is rooted in the sovreignty of God and doctrinally, (A sister in the Lord has told me that in the US one has to be on or the other of Calvin or Arminian - reminds me sadly of 1 Cor 1 and Paul's cry 'Is Christ divided?') of a Calvinistic explanation.



sis D, is God Sovereign or not? i believe He is and this nonsense of either having to be Calvanist or Araminian grieves me to no end. God is totally Sovereign, and we have free will too yet His Sovereignty Rules all. If we look at the testimony of the word, we see clearly we have free will but also clearly that God has Predestined, now to me that says that God is not confused about this, Paul understood and so do i now by the same Grace given to Paul. it's not a matter of either or when it comes to free will and predestination, scripture says it is both, clealy. i would say that the argument from both sides of this issue stems from our overinflated view of ourselves sometimes which clouds our minds and hearts so much so that we often don't consider that the other side is right too. Calvanists think sometimes Araminians are nuts and vice versa but i think both views apart from eachother are equally foolish. This is because primarily God sees both things as 1 in the Eternal Purpose, that is His Glory Forever so it's not one or the other from His Vantage Point clearly. We must take hold of both lest we end up with a warped view of God and live according to that and present that to others.

Quote:
But, it's the right answer from the wrong reasoning....



then you know God is at work in this wretch if He can lead me to the right conclusion in spite of my bungling and bumbling about! :-P oh thank you Jesus for your death!


Quote:
except inasmuchas if the death of Christ is not sovreignly sufficient for the sin of the world, we are all lost!



oh i belive fully that God holding up His end of the Bargain allows us to do the same in spite of ourselves. Without that, we have no hope as you said.

Quote:
Further, this leaves 'Israel' without excuse.



indeed which is why any Jew (or any body for that matter) who dies apart from Christ spends eternity in the lake of fire. All the same though sis, you and i being Gentiles are saved because Israel has been blinded and God saw to it. Now that we are Saved, we are to bring Israel to Jealousy by showing forth Christ such that they are convicted and come to repentance and the Salvation which is also theirs clearly as much as it has been made ours. So we have a job to do and it would appear we aren't doing as well as we ought to at present in this task we have been charged with by our Lord and God. May He be Grace for us to so do that our brethren may share in what God has made ours at their expense. May we give unto them the Salvation which we have ourselves received so freely.AMEN.

Indeed sis D our Lord is making His bride ready, and God the Father is preparing His also, that being ISrael. Now Israel is yet in slumber for our sake yet this is part of the preparation hence Paul saying that she has been blinded for our sake and that all Israel will be saved and even this:

Romans 11:

[b]25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness F45 in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[/b]

Paul warns us that if God didn't spare the natural branches, he will not spare us either from being tossed in the fire...

sis sometimes i feel (and i pray God i am wrong and would rather be wrong so i can be corrected) that in discussions such as these, we boast against the branches...i read your post and was concerned of this boasting. To be sure there is the other extreme too which would allow Israel Salvation apart from Christ and we know that is not the case. Sis, i see the promises given ISrael as to be Fulfilled completely once she comes to Salvation in Christ. The lands, and so on given to Abraham will be theirs only when they come to Christ.

perhaps i am wrong about this, if so may God set me straight. However if i am right, may He set us all straight that we may not boast or get carried away in vain conceits but that we would bring Israel to Jealousy and the Salvation promisd her from of old which we have been given on account of their being blinded.AMEN.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/12 14:33Profile









 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question


Hello Rahman and IRONMAN,

I've given my time this evening to replying in the new thread started by Eli (Jacob to Israel) but I want to reply to Rahman's statement that I believe 'replacement theology', thus inferring things from what I have said, which I do not believe, and did not say.

In fact, it is replacement theology to believe that the nation of Israel has replaced the Church on the basis of the passages in Romans 9 - 11.

If you honestly take everything else Paul wrote, (which we have in the New Testament,) equally into account with Romans, you cannot believe replacement theology. Neither do I.

My belief in the New Covenant and its effects, is rooted in the epistle to the Hebrews, where Christ's work is given its fullest explanation and most appropriate place and meaning for Israelites in particular.

In saying this, again I (personally) do not divide up scripture into books for Jews, books not for gentiles, books for gentiles but not Jews and so on. It's the word of God. The whole written record of His revelation of Himself to mankind, and it's all worth our while to take it all in.

The most obvious objection to replacement theology (as it's been explained to me), is that as a linear concept it is incompatible with the revelation of scripture; which is solid and structured, and probably best described as multidimensional, if one includes eternity and history. I reiterate what I implied earlier when I referred you to my dream... that [u]replacement theology is a lie[/u].

Therefore, I do hope you see this and what is erroneous about it, without mistakenly disposing of the truthful interpretations of the same scriptures which are being reconfigured by those who [u]do not believe[/u], for the purpose of injuring the Church and God's cause.

 2007/8/14 18:49
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name sis D by whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
In fact, it is replacement theology to believe that the nation of Israel has replaced the Church on the basis of the passages in Romans 9 - 11.



indeed it is but i am not saying that Israel has replaced the Church. what i am saying is that in the Church, that is all saved men Jew or Gentile, there remains a distinct destiny for Israel which we can't ignore which involves the temple, the restoration of the land in the millenium, Christ ruling from Jerusalem and other things. it seems at least, we are not willing to acknowledge that and i am wary of that sentiment because i believe it is of the enemy. to be sure, there are destinies written for all of us, unique to all of us because God made it so and so it is for Israel and the Gentile even in Salvation. There is no getting around Christ as Saviour either way so there is no difference between Jew or Gentile but just as the Church (Jew and Gentile together) make up the Body of Christ which is made up of many parts, each with different roles all to the same end, so there are distinctions among us in terms of destiny, this goes beyond the individual to families, nations and kindreds.

Quote:
In saying this, again I (personally) do not divide up scripture into books for Jews, books not for gentiles, books for gentiles but not Jews and so on. It's the word of God. The whole written record of His revelation of Himself to mankind, and it's all worth our while to take it all in.



neither do i but see some places and things which are distinctly pertaining more to Jews than Gentiles and vice-versa. However the bottom line is that all these things irrespective of who is given a larger role, all work toward the Purpose, the Glory of God Forever.

Quote:
Therefore, I do hope you see this and what is erroneous about it, without mistakenly disposing of the truthful interpretations of the same scriptures which are being reconfigured by those who do not believe, for the purpose of injuring the Church and God's cause.



i believe i do and if i have not come to a full view of this i pray God bring me to it quickly. i hope also you see where in the word there are those interpetations which speak to Jewry in Christ specifically but see that it is a matter of divine destiny which distinguishes the 2 groups not in the sense of being separate in terms of Salvation. i hope you see where i am coming from more clearly, yes there is no difference between Jew or Gentile in Christ, because all must be in Christ to be saved, but just like you and i have different destinies or roles to fill to the end that God be Glorified, so does the Jew and Gentile in that sense.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/15 4:33Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: sis D

Reply too (Edit),

The Temples made with hands were exsamples. When Paul spoke they were still standing. With out any merit (Edit) you have become the temple of The Living God. Salvation is not of you, its a gift from your Holy Father.

In Love your brother Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/8/15 8:33Profile





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