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 Re:

All I am saying is that true repentance is always complete, partial obedience is disobedience.

Repentance/obedience is like a light switch, it's either on or off.

In regards to knowledge, it's like a light dimmer. You gradually grow in knowledge, and must grow in obedience to that knowledge.

But you must always obey the light (knowledge) that you have.

Nothing but total obedience is obedience. Partial obedience is disobedience. Which is the same as saying that nothing but total repentance is repentance. Partial repentance is impenitence. Because God requires total obedience/repentance, anything less is disobedience/impenitence.

 2007/8/9 2:06
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
Patrick,

Please receive this in the way I mean it. I don't mean it to just stir up things.



Quote:
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You must be saved from all known sin and walk in that state or you are not saved.
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Anything that falls short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God is, according to Scripture, sin- so unless you say that you do not fall short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God then you my brother have unconscious sin according to the Scriptures.
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So are you saying you are conscious that you have known sin? Does that mean the first quote applies to you? I don't see how both quotes can be entirely true in your way of thinking.

Does this not mean that if I admit the first, I'm lying. And if I admit the second, I'm not saved?



No I am not saying that at all - you have mis-understood me. In the second staement I am specifically talking about unconsious or unknown sin.

The point that I was trying to make is that sanctification is a process that will continue your whole life because there will always be unknown areas of your life were you fall short of the infinitely perfect love, faith, patients, mercy, humility, etc. of Jesus Christ - and yes falling short or missing the mark is sin by it's very definition. I had a brother tell me recently "well I don't call that sin" I answered him by saying "when God reveals those areas and puts His finger on the such things do you need to repent of where you have fallen short and missed the mark and if you continue to blatantly fall short and miss the mark then are you on your way to hell?" He answered "yes you have to repent and turn when God shows you were you have fallen short and if you don't then you are on your way to hell" I think it was painfully clear how silly it was to not call such things sin. But this brother couldn't call such things either sin or in-perfections because if he did then his whole theology would start to fall apart - he had to call them mistakes. I told him "if it is missing the mark or falling short and you have to repent and turn from it then the Bible calls it sin and I am going to call it sin"

I am sure you are aware that there are areas in you life that the Lord has not reveled to you yet where you fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. I am also reasonably sure you would agree when the Lord reveals these areas to you then you must repent and turn from them. Know I don't care if you call it sin or not - it doesn't matter to me what you call it as long as you agree that:

1. You have unknown areas in your life where you fall short or miss the mark of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. thus you are not perfect.

2. When the Lord shows you these area of in-perfection in your life where you miss the mark or fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. you must repent and turn from what ever it is that the Lord shows you.

Can we at least agree with these two points?

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2007/8/9 5:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:
(There is nothing but God's wrath for sins that we choose not to turn away from. But God has nothing but grace for the sins that we do turn away from)



This is not true. If we are saved we are not under wrath. We may, and usually do, pay the consequences that sin brings into our lives... but Christ died for our sins once and for all. Once we accept that, we are under His mercy.

To say that we can reach a point where we no longer sin is to say that we no longer require His mercy and grace.

I think there are misunderstandings on both sides, and I'm not sure what anyone is saying anymore. But I will say this, if anyone believes they can acheive perfection in this life, as Christ did... you are incorrect. And if anyone here believes that you can get saved, live for Jesus... yet you have some sin that you forgot or neglected, (or even ignored) to ask forgiveness for... and you go to hell because of that... you are wrong.

If this were the case, then perhaps the Catholics have a better deal because at least they preach purgatory. And this is the exact same thinking and reasoning behind purgatory.

When you are saved, does Christ's blood cover all of your sin, or just the sin you committed before you were saved... and each time you sin you have to start all over again?

Krispy

 2007/8/9 7:38









 Re: Holiness Possible Today



I confess I have not read the whole thread, but looked in to see what was going on.

Krispy said

Quote:
When you are saved, does Christ's blood cover all of your sin, or just the sin you committed before you were saved... and each time you sin you have to start all over again?

Krispy,

I agree with what you said till the word 'covered' which is an Old Covenant term, not applicable under the New Covenant.

Hebrews 10
11 And every [Old Covenant] priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and [i]having[/i] a High Priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a [u]true heart[/u] in [u]full assurance of faith[/u], having our hearts [u]sprinkled from an evil conscience[/u] and [u]our bodies washed with pure water[/u].


I've underlined the big difference from the OC in the above verse. The priest used to wash to become fit to enter God's presence, but he wouldn't have a clean conscience.


There was a thread about 'instant sanctification' in which philolgos explained that being 'glorified' would be a better way of explaining the process we undergo after we have set ourselves aside\been marked out as set aside to God.

By faith - both His and ours. (This is my additional comment.)


If we call it [i]glorification[/i], it fits better with

2 Cor 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.


I prefer Tyndale's rendering, because it makes more sense of the example of Moses given in the preceding verses, and therefore also speaks to me more clearly about what is a) expected of me and b) I can expect from God if I look on Christ.


Tyndale's New Testament
But we all behold the glory of the Lord with His face open, and are changed into the same similitude, from glory to glory, even of the spirit of the Lord.


I think there is always to remember our being grafted into His death (Rom 6:4, 5) is associated with being raised in Him by the glory of the Father (Eph 1:19, 20) and His request on our behalf in John 17:4, 5, 16 - 22)


I wonder whether
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

is a reference to His being the Lamb slain from before the foundaton of the world, outworked in
real time on the cross, by which mankind is able to retrieve the glory lost by Adam.


1 John 7
But if we walk in the light [u]as He is in the light[/u], we have fellowship with one another, [u]and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from [b]all[/b] sin[/u].


EDIT: That's holiness. In the OT, a thing was 'holy' if it had been set apart for God's use and kept that way... used only for that purpose.

If the truth is in us (1 John 1:8), we continually come across sin we had never identified [i]as sin[/i], which shows up in the light of His constant gaze.

But, He loves us, and keeps washing us if we are honest about and bring to Him the discrepancies we find in ourselves and turn towards the light.

John 3
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 "But he who [u]does[/u] the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."


God sees our hearts' true attitude and either we are condemned by our inaction towards the light, or justified by faith in and through Jesus Christ.

 2007/8/9 8:38
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
The point that I was trying to make is that sanctification is a process that will continue your whole life because there will always be unknown areas of your life were you fall short of the infinitely perfect love, faith, patients, mercy, humility, etc. of Jesus Christ - and yes falling short or missing the mark is sin by it's very definition.



This is where I am struggling with your position. Are you conscience that you don't line up to this definition of sin or do you know that there are areas you don't line up with? If you are conscience of it, you must repent. If you are not conscience of it, how can you speak of it? I don't know if it's possible to speak of something that you don't know exist.

Maybe I can put it like this. Are you perfect in mercy? If you say no, then you admit you have a consciencness of it- which as you say is sin. Are you lining up with the full knowledge you have in the area of mercy? If yes, how can you say you're not perfect in mercy since you don't know any measure of mercy that is higher? I hope that makes sense. I don't want to sound really philosophical...

Here are some more questions. For some reason I end up asking lots of questions in posts. Of course I don't expect you to answer them all. I just do it that way so you can see my thinking.

Are there certain aspects of God that we can be conscience of and it not be sin if we don't line up? An example is that I know that God "knows all things." Surely, you don't believe it's a sin for me to not know all things? If you do think it's a sin, then it's an unrepentable sin- there is now way I can repent from it.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/8/9 11:16Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
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 Re:

Quote:
Are there certain aspects of God that we can be conscience of and it not be sin if we don't line up? An example is that I know that God "knows all things." Surely, you don't believe it's a sin for me to not know all things? If you do think it's a sin, then it's an unrepentable sin- there is now way I can repent from it.



I just noticed that someone could uses this to say that when we go to heaven we won't have sin based on 1 Cor 13:12. I'll use another attribute of God instead- His omnipresence. I'm fairly convinced we can never have that- even if we are conscience of it.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/8/9 11:28Profile
Isaiah64
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Joined: 2006/9/27
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 Re:

Quote:
Ah... see, this is where you're not understanding me. There is a difference between struggle and victory. You can struggle and still have victory.



Ok, now I get what you're saying. And I agree. There is a difference between struggling with temptation, and [i]giving in to it.[/i]

Quote:
So, are you telling us that you have no sin in your life? You're living in total victory?


Not yet, I'm afraid. But I'm aiming there. By God's grace and strength, I know I can have victory. And more importantly, I can have more of HIM and HIS PRESENCE.

Quote:
If the answer is "no", then how do you know that it's possible to reach victory over all sin?


Cause the Bible tells me so! :-D

Thanks for bringing up 1 John 2:1-2. I'd forgotten about that one (my memory's not as good as it used to be). It actually proves my point.

1 John 2:1-2: [i]My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.[/i]

So the very reason this was written was so we WOULDN'T sin.

[i]And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous...[/i]

And then it says "IF any man sin," not that we have to, but should the unfortunate event occur that we fall to temptation, we have an advocate in Christ Jesus.

Quote:
And since we're discussing Paul admitting that he daily struggled with his flesh (just as Jesus said we would), can you show me where Paul declares his total victory over his flesh?



Well, Romans 8 and the other verses I pointed out I think explain themselves well.

 2007/8/9 17:17Profile
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
Maybe I can put it like this. Are you perfect in mercy? If you say no, then you admit you have a consciencness of it- which as you say is sin. Are you lining up with the full knowledge you have in the area of mercy? If yes, how can you say you're not perfect in mercy since you don't know any measure of mercy that is higher? I hope that makes sense. I don't want to sound really philosophical...



I still think you are misunderstanding.

Fist of all I would not the use the word perfect and would ask for clear definition of the word perfect before I answered - but to answer your question...

If you asked me - are you perfect in mercy - my answer would be both yes and no - yes in the fact that according to my present knowledge I am lining up with the full knowledge I have in the area of mercy but at the same time I admit that I fall short and miss the mark of the infinite perfect mercy of God.

Now the Bible gives different definition of sin -would agree that one definition is missing the mark or falling short? And another definition would be transgression of the law?

Also, the Bible make definite distinction between known and deliberate sin and unknown sin. I do agree that it is sometime hard to wrap a logical mind around this but it is what the Bible says none the less. Would you agree that the Bible makes this distinction between known and un-known, willful and un-willful and deliberate and un-deliberate sin?


Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2007/8/9 18:06Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
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 Re:

Quote:
If you asked me - are you perfect in mercy - my answer would be both yes and no - yes in the fact that according to my present knowledge I am lining up with the full knowledge I have in the area of mercy but at the same time I admit that I fall short and miss the mark of the infinite perfect mercy of God.



This is where I think we differ. I don't believe God expects us to be like Him in the magnitude that He is. I believe that is impossible. I think we both agree on that. I believe God expects me to do what He has revealed to me. I honestly don't see where He expects me to do things that He hasn't revealed to me. Here are some verses that come to mind.


Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I don't believe everything is relative, but there is an relative aspect to some sin. I think it's interesting that someone can commit an action that in God's eyes is not unclean, yet if for some reason the individual feels it is wrong and does it anyways, it's sin.

Quote:
Also, the Bible make definite distinction between known and deliberate sin and unknown sin. I do agree that it is sometime hard to wrap a logical mind around this but it is what the Bible says none the less. Would you agree that the Bible makes this distinction between known and un-known, willful and un-willful and deliberate and un-deliberate sin?



I struggle a little with this. I know in the OT there is talk of unknown sin. This is because people may honestly not know the law. The law was something that had to be read and studied. It was something that was external; it had to be taught. Since the law is now written on our hearts and we have an anointing that teaches us all things...

I think there are verses that I've seen used to say that someone can commit unknown sins in the NT, but I can't think of any right now. Can you show me some examples?

Here is another question. Do "unknown sins" produce guilt?


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Josh Parsley

 2007/8/9 22:19Profile
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
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 Re:

Quote:
This is where I think we differ. I don't believe God expects us to be like Him in the magnitude that He is. I believe that is impossible. I think we both agree on that. I believe God expects me to do what He has revealed to me. I honestly don't see where He expects me to do things that He hasn't revealed to me.



I think we agree completely - God only expects you to do it AFTER he reveals it you, as you have aptly said. The only thing I am saying is that it was still there before God revealed it to you - right?

Quote:
Here is another question. Do "unknown sins" produce guilt?



Only after they are revealed then they are repented of and turned from.

Quote:
I think there are verses that I've seen used to say that someone can commit unknown sins in the NT, but I can't think of any right now. Can you show me some examples?



Anything from the time you were born again that you did not realize was sin or was in your life or your heart before God revealed it to you was in my definition unknown sin. For example and I am sure we all have many - has there even been after you have been born again an area of pride or anger or unforgivenness in you heart that the Lord revealed to you? We know that pride and anger and unforgivenness are all sins - they were there before the Lord revealed them to you as unknown sins - when God revealed them to you, they became known sins, produced guilt, then you repented and turned from them. That would be my definition and example of known and un-known sin - does that make sense?

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

1 John 3:8-9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

To willfully sin or to commit sin or to be a worker of iniquity is what I would described as willful sin - meaning you know it is sin and you do or commit it anyway. I know it is a sin to lie but I am going to lie anyway - that would be willful sin. But you may have an area of pride in your heart that the Lord has not revealed to you yet - I know because the Lord has recently revealed to me secret areas of pride hidden deep in the recesses of my heart that I was unaware of - now this pride is definitely sin even before God reveals it - because we know that pride is a sin. This is what I would refer to as unknown sin - it is there and it is sin but God has not revealed it to you yet.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2007/8/10 4:29Profile





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