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 Re:

Specifically, which sins can your conscience be ignorant of?

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You also seem to think that God is going to hold us to a standard higher then we are capable of. Finite creatures will not be accountable to an infinite standard. God requires of us only what we are capable of, God holds us accountable only to what is possible for us. "Love..with all thy" is the sum of moral obligation.

God expects and requires from each individual exactly what that individual is capable of, no more and no less.

 2007/8/8 15:12
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Anything that falls short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God is, according to Scripture, sin- so unless you say that you do not fall short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God then you my brother have unconscious sin according to the Scriptures. That's where the rubber hits the road!


Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2007/8/8 15:27Profile
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

If you ask God to show you where in your life you fall short of the infinite perfection of Jesus Christ I am sure that He will be glad to be very specific.

Unless of course you claim to not fall short of the infinite perfection of Jesus Christ in anyway the that work of God showing you where you fall short of Christ's infinite perfection is done in your life.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2007/8/8 15:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I don't know...maybe I haven't seen it or can't remember it right now, but can you please show me another example from Scripture where Paul laments his inability to have victory over the flesh?



Ah... see, this is where you're not understanding me. There is a difference between struggle and victory. You can struggle and still have victory.

So, are you telling us that you have no sin in your life? You're living in total victory?

If the answer is "no", then how do you know that it's possible to reach victory over all sin?

And what do you do with this verse? Does it no longer apply to you if you have complete and total victory over all sin (sinlessness)?

[b]1 John 2:1-2[/b] [i]My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.[/i]

And since we're discussing Paul admitting that he daily struggled with his flesh (just as Jesus said we would), can you show me where Paul declares his total victory over his flesh?

And by the way, I think I've been accused on this thread, if not directly then indirectly, of using my position on this as an excuse to sin. If any one thinks that... shame on you. I say that with love, but I say it firmly. Anyone who has been here for any length of time should know me better than that.

Krispy

 2007/8/8 15:39
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

I meant to mention this eariler.

Quote:
NEW HEART

- God says He gives man a new heart:

Eze 36:26 - A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

- God commands man to make his own new heart:

Eze 18:31 - Cast away from yourselves all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?



Do you honestly believe those are referring to the same thing? If you do, do you see what the implications are? If they are the same, then the new covenant really isn't new in nature. If they could receive a new heart in the same manner and in the same way in the old covenant as one does in the new covenant, then only things that have changed are a few rules. Possibly, unless you believe like dmatic. If you believe that the OT saints received a new heart just like us, then really there can't be much of a difference. I know you may say that we are now under a "law of love" but I honestly can't swallow that the OT saints didn't love God in a real way.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/8/8 15:40Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Anything that falls short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God is, according to Scripture, sin- so unless you say that you do not fall short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God then you my brother have unconscious sin according to the Scriptures.



Do you believe we will alway sin in heaven? Do all the angels sin? I don't believe the answer to either question is anything but "no." None can compare to God- ever.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/8/8 15:43Profile









 Re:

Quote:
This is why I say you misunderstand the position of those who believe that the Scripture clearly teaches entire sanctification. In no way do I believe that you will ever on this earth get to a place where you CANNOT sin. As Leonard Ravenhill said, "It's not the inability to sin, it's the ability NOT to sin." It doesn't mean you won't be tempted (our Lord Jesus was tempted), it doesn't mean life won't be a struggle. But the Lord can do such a work in your heart, and His presence can be so real in your life, and the love of God can be so perfected in your soul, that you wll be able to live in victory daily. Can you fall from being purely sanctified? Yes you can. It's a daily walk with the Lord, and you always have to be on your guard, taking heed lest you fall. But I don't know about you, but it would be a little hard to sin for me if I were in the very presence of Christ.



I think I can go along with that. See... I've actually met people who have told me that they have reached sinless perfection. One actually told me this as he was driving 70 in a 60 mph zone. Thats no joke! He really did... and you just know I pointed out his speed to him when he told me this.

... and dont you know he tried to justify his speeding.

I've run into people like this a lot. So if I'm misunderstanding you, thats why. But I think I'm beginning to see a little clearer your position.

But those who claim sinless perfection, as some do, always strike me as a tad prideful... and legalistic.

Krispy

 2007/8/8 15:44
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Patrick,

Please receive this in the way I mean it. I don't mean it to just stir up things.

Quote:
You must be saved from all known sin and walk in that state or you are not saved.



Quote:
Anything that falls short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God is, according to Scripture, sin- so unless you say that you do not fall short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God then you my brother have unconscious sin according to the Scriptures.



So are you saying you are conscious that you have known sin? Does that mean the first quote applies to you? :-? I don't see how both quotes can be entirely true in your way of thinking.

Does this not mean that if I admit the first, I'm lying. And if I admit the second, I'm not saved?


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/8/8 15:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Anything that falls short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God is, according to Scripture, sin



Patrick,

You are saying that if a [i][u]finite[/i][/u] creature does anything short of [i][u]infinite[/i][/u] perfection, it is sin.

1. Do you think anyone will ever be infinitely perfect like God is infinitely perfect?

Will you be infinitely perfect in heaven, as God is infinitely perfect?

2. And do you think that a finite creature who fails to be infinitely perfect is sinning?

3. And if, even in Heaven, we will not be infinitely perfect as God is infinitely perfect, would you say that God allows sin into Heaven?

According to you, we either must become infinitely perfect as God is before going to Heaven, or else God let's sin into Heaven.

I don't believe sin will be in Heaven but neither do I believe that we will ever be infinitely perfect.

[b]We are finite and can have nothing other then finite perfection.[/b] And God requires from finite creatures nothing other then finite perfection.

Josh,

A new heart is when a man chooses to repent and believe. A man who chooses to repent and believe is therefore a new creature with a new heart. Your heart is your will. A new heart is a changed will.

If I change my path, it means I start going a different direction. If I have a changed heart, it means I start making different decisions; it means that my motives and intentions are different. God influences us to make different decisions with our freewill, but we ourselves choose to make those decisions with our freewill.

 2007/8/8 15:56
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I've actually met people who have told me that they have reached sinless perfection.



I reach Sinless Perfection quite often. Prayer is the best place to meet Him. :-D

(I think Ron Baliey was the first to say something similar to that, but I really like it!)


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Josh Parsley

 2007/8/8 16:01Profile





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