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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : All Christians Are Calvinist When They're on Their Knees.

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adamdawkins
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re:

Quote:
his is what calvanism looks to me. and im not from arminian.....



me either really.

 2007/7/25 18:16Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
but am tired of getting battered with a tulip every 10 seconds!



But did you know that had it not been for the followers of Arminius, the TULIP would not have been created?

The five points of Calvinism were not written down by Calvin, as he was dead when they were brought together. But rahter the five points were in response to five points presented by the Remonstrants(Arminians).

If you search for the Synod of Dort, you can find the objections presented and refuted. If anyhting it will strengthen you in what you currently believe.

Here is a link to the points raised and refuted

[url=http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil//creeds/dort.htm]Synod Of Dort[/url]


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 18:16Profile
adamdawkins
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re:

Then I'm tired of the Remonstrants too!

Thanks for the link though.

 2007/7/25 18:34Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
What I am saying is that, if a Calvinist says that God limits who will partake of the work of the Cross, usually people are quick to say, "unfair, that is not the God of the Bible etc."

we only cry unfair because (1)God has said that He desires all men to be saved and (2)He has commanded all men everywhere to repent and "believe on Him".

it would be different if God said "i don't really want all to be saved, i just want some of all kinds of people and don't worry about it because if you are selected you will come to me and if you are not, then you cannot do anything about it". if the bible said this, then we cannot cry unfair because that would be His choice. but God has not said this. He said that He wants all men to be saved.period.
Quote:
It seems that so long as man can retain some say, or maintain some sort of godlike quality(i.e. choosing to partake of Christ), men don't have a problem. But once you get into the total inability and ingratitude towards God that men have, and how they would not seek God unless He gave them the very urge to do so, man begins to become infuriated as he believes there is still something redeemable in him.

didn't God make us in His image in that He made us free moral agents to choose God or not?? if not, then what does it mean that we are created in His image?? didn't adam have the option to eat from whatever trees he desired?

there is nothing in man that makes him so redeemable save that God loved us so much that He died for us. He loved man so much that He refused to let any perish except those that continually reject the Light and conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 2007/7/25 19:23Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
It seems that so long as man can retain some say, or maintain some sort of godlike quality(i.e. choosing to partake of Christ), men don't have a problem.

How is agreeing with God a godlike quality?

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
But once you get into the total inability and ingratitude towards God that men have, and how they would not seek God unless He gave them the very urge to do so, man begins to become infuriated as he believes there is still something redeemable in him.

This goes back to a comment that I made after you replied to a post of mine on a nother thred. I will bring it up here for the relevence of it.

Me:
If my new born can not mow the lawn, should I expect him to mow it?
Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
If it was a required for him to live, and you were comapssionate towards him, would you not intervene, and do what he could not? And then in the wonders of your grace attribute it to him as if he had done it so that he could be in relationship to you and have life.


What if I was your god who hates some of his creation and do not choose for him to be in relationship to me.
Would I still I expect him to mow it and condemn him for not mowing it?

This is why man gets man begins to become infuriated with "total Depravity" and "inability"

 2007/7/25 19:27Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I wonder though, do any of you feel sympathy for Satan and his angels?

They cannot be saved, why not?


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 19:38Profile
adamdawkins
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
I wonder though, do any of you feel sympathy for Satan and his angels?

They cannot be saved, why not?



The first point of interest here seems to be that Satan [i]chose[/i] to rebel against God.


Isaiah 14:
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For [b]you[/b] have said in [b]your[/b] heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.


As for why they cannot be saved, I don't what it takes to sin in the Heavenly places - I don't what time is like their either. To sin in Heaven itself is surely beyond our comprehension.

If God pre-destined [i]everything[/i] - from Satan's Fall, through Adam's fall to the crucifixion and the election of the saints, then it seems to me He is merely playing a game - creating a story and letting it play out.

My God is the God who chooses to react as well as act - the God who 'relents' after hearing the prayers of Moses and Abraham - who says "Come ALL who are thirsty". Oh dear, I'm being sucked in at last. roaringlamb, I wonder if maybe you should read how your posts sound, I do find them unnecessarily provocative.


 2007/7/25 20:36Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

My point in this was simply to show that no one thinks it's unfair for satan and his angels to be sent to hell for sin, but yet it is for man.

I am simply trying to show that sin has negated any claim man had on Heaven, thus if God should save not one soul, He is still just, and good, and holy, and love.

The fact that He saves any should humble us, as salvation is one the most UNFAIR things man receives.

Again, I will post one Scripture that many have refused to answer-
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

This seems to indicate that man's will had nothing to do with his new birth, but that it was God's doing, then this is this one-
Jas 1:18 [b]Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,[/b] that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.






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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 20:50Profile
seanjol
Member



Joined: 2004/11/12
Posts: 55
Charleston, SC

 Re:

Joh 1:12 [b]But as many as received him[/b]to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

For by grace are ye saved through [b]Faith[/b], and that not of yourself it is the gift of God, Not of Works, lest any man should boast.

The fact that in john 1:12 he states that as many as [b]received[/b]him to them gave he the prerogative to be called the sons of God. Not by works, or following the letter of the law but by faith. Jesus came into the world and was received, yes received, by a few and to those it was given the right to be the sons of God.\

The religious of the time only understood being born of the flesh; Nicademous didn't know what it meant to be born again.

There are things on both views that I ponder greatly. One thing that I truly believe is that Calvin and the belief limits God to our time-space continuum. God can see eternal past and future. God can be moved by our prayers, look at Moses's intercession for the children of Israel in the desert when he was going to destroy them. He is not locked in to a your in your out salvation plan.

He is the one who inspired john to write, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him would not perish, but have everlasting life. Now if Calvin is right it should have said whosoever is chosen by Him would not perish but have everlasting life.

Lastly, who is Calvin,
who is Arminius

[b]I am of Christ[/b]

Sean


_________________
Sean

 2007/7/25 21:53Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
My point in this was simply to show that no one thinks it's unfair for satan and his angels to be sent to hell for sin, but yet it is for man.

It is perfectly just for man to be sent to hell.
Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
I am simply trying to show that sin has negated any claim man had on Heaven, thus if God should save not one soul, He is still just, and good, and holy, and love.


Choosing Chist does not give man a "claim on heaven", it gives man claim to his own destiny.

Again, I will post one Scripture:

[b]John 1:12-13[/b] [color=990000]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[b]:13[/b] Which were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of [b]a[/b] man, but of God.[/color]

bloods = descendants of Abraham
will of the flesh = merit (choice has no merit)
will of [b]a[/b] man = Not a person, but a fellow, husband, man, sir.

If it was according to your theory, it would use the word "anthropos" not "anayr".

[i]It was not God's sovereignty in unconditional election that John was addressing in this passage at all, nor the lack of man's free choice.
It was purely a contrast between the "natural" ("born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man") and the "supernatural" "but of God".[/i][size=xx-small]© Pristine Faith Restoration Society[/size]

[b]John 1:13[/b] Children born not of natural descent, nor of human effort or a husband's will, but born of God.

 2007/7/25 22:07Profile





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