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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
It is Jesus Christ that was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world.....and WE, those who have put their faith in Christ Crucified, who have been predestined TO BE CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE.



Katy-did, do you believe that a 'way of salvation' was predestined or a 'people of salvation' was predestined?

Romans 8:29 makes it clear that a People were predestined.

Romans 8:29 (ESV)

29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

New International Version (NIV)

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;


King James Version (KJV)

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Now, I want to clarify that I do believe that men are responsible for their sins and must repent. However, we must not overlook the biblical truth that it is God who saves us according to His will and we respond in faith after He has revealed Himself to us. Remember, faith is believing God's promised to be true, how can we believe God's promises are true until we actually see God's promises?

 2007/7/29 23:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The Church needs to challenge the world again with the daring proclamation of a gospel that is offensive---offensive because it speaks of God saving those whom He will, offensive because it proclaims a sovereign Savior who redeems His people.



That quote is not the GOSPEL that Paul preached or said, I am not ashamed of the Gospel. He laid down his life to preach a Gospel to WHOSOEVER WILL, in the face of the Pharisee's who believed in an exclusive OUR WAY ONLY. Let us take heed! ALL Cults preach a limited, secret select few.


How does this verse fit in with Calvinism?

Luke 18:17
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

It doesn't!!!!


Love in Christ
Katy-did




 2007/7/29 23:12









 Re:

Quote:
Christ came to save. So, did He? And how did He? Was it not by His death? Most certainly. The atoning death of Christ provides forgiveness of sins for all those for whom it is made. That is why Christ came.”



The Bible says we are Justified by His blood, and Saved by His life, His Risen life.

ALL came out of Egypt under the Blood, but ALL did not go into the land of Promise...to us that would mean the Risen life of Christ. Also the Blood of Jesus was carried right up to heaven, right to the throne of God, opening the way NOW for whosoever will identify with Him in death and resurrection life.

Do you know even Heaven itself was purified with the Blood of Christ, and you think there isn't enough to go around that it needs to be limited??? You don't understand teh atonement at all.

Hebrews 9:23
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


Our salvation is in our identification with Jesus in death and resurrection life. Our salvation is when we are raised up together with Him...at this point we are Born Again. It's the Spirit of life in Christ that set us free from the law of sin and death...Adam and Eve sinned, mankind died spiritually.

Calvin had a *head knowledge* coming down from Augustine who was a Gnostic (look it up, all fact). However, Calvin himself never understood who he was in Christ. He thought of himself standing before a tribunal on judgment day. We do no such thing...we stand in Christ...forgiven. So with his understanding did he believe Jesus had to stand before a tribunal? Also, you know you have passed from death to life when you LOVE the brethren. But not only so, we are to love our neighbor as yourself, and to be a peace with all men as much as possible. Calvin, MURDERED people who disagreed with him. Some 125 people or maybe more who disagreed with his doctrines. This is not of God, or even close to someone being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Reformed Theology or Calvinism is reformed Catholicism, as Calvin was called the Protestant Pope, forming a Theocracy in Geneva. We're not called to set up a Theocracy in the world. Reformed Theology has been reformed and reformed and reformed all the way down to Karl Barth, and will probably be reformed again and again. Why? Because it is reformed Catholicism. The Bible/ Scripture never needs to be reformed. But obviously man's understanding of it needs to be reformed..therefore it is a man made doctrine.


John Wycliffe, some 2-300 years prior to Calvin believed God placed Kings over countries, not the Church. He also translated the Bible so common people could read. We have in this country the religious right coming out of the Reformed Churches who want and believe the same thing Calvin did...taking America back for God. Geneva ended in disaster and bloodshed and embarrassment. Will history repeat itself?

If Calvin believed that God only saved His select few Elect, why on earth did he feel he needed to murder people who:

1. Was not the Elect
2. Tried to force people to become "the elect".

You see, there are all kinds of problems with this doctrine and the legacy it has left behind.

Have you ever read the Covenant by James Michener, about South Africa. It's hand in Politics and Church is a most frightening thing, everywhere it's been. Completely OPPOSITE of anything Paul or the Apostles left behind, including Jesus Christ, who said..."My Kingdom is not of the world".

God never made a Covenant with a Gentile Nation...Never... Israel OLNY was a Theocracy, and the only other one will be when Jesus Christ takes the Throne of David and Reigns and Rules for 1000 years.


There is more to Calvinism then meets the eye.

WHAT'S IN THE MIND OF CALVIN BLIND

Onward Christian Soldiers sail,
Across the seas, and show your tail,
March or' the lands and place your mark,
With Israel's lost [i][b] or stolen[/b][/i] ARK,

We are Reformed Theology,
And we give no apology,
Marching or' the lands you see,
To purge your homes of MTV.

Oh Can't you see the Irony,
This Gospel's rather bland you see,
No Gospel here to save poor me,
It only wants my MTV.


But you said it best, Calvinism does not preach Whosoever will or has a heart for the lost...to this day, I haven't met a Calvinist who does. Calvinism is just another ME MYSELF and I Gospel.

Love in Christ
Katy-did


 2007/7/30 0:17
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re: romans 9 jaysaved

dear brother, thank you so much for your patience with me. i have been desiring to write about romans 9 for a little bit, but have been very busy. brother, i will attempt to show you that i do not believe that romans 9 is referring to individual election on the basis of God randomly selecting some and passing others. i will only read the passage and explain what i believe it is saying. i will not go to a commentary or guide, but will write what i believe it is saying. (my interpretation of each verse).

first off, we have to differentiate what the election of isreal was about. there are different elections (example. Christ elected one, israel elected to bring forth Messiah, and the the elect who will be with the Father in heaven). i believe that verse 11 is talking about israel's election in bringing forth the Messiah, but i will expand on that later.

(v6) we see that not all israelites are the isreal of God. just because they are born of natural descent, that does not mean they are elect (the saved ones). that is a clue to the remainder of this great passage.

(v7) again, he is saying that the true israel is the one who has been born in a spiritual and supernatural way, not of the flesh (ex. in isaac and ishmael)

(v8) this verse is showing us that the children of God are the ones who like isaac was born through the spirit of God and not the arm of the flesh. these last 2 verses are recounting the story and example of abraham with ishmael and isaac. this is a clue to the passage. ishmael is a type of the flesh (abraham trying and willing to make God's promise happen in his own strength) while isaac is a type of the spirit (abraham could not make this happen, he had to believe God and allow God to do what He promised). personal note: he had to trust God and cease from trying in his strength.

(v9) this was the promise that the Lord told them in genesis 18.

so paul was reminding the romans about the story of abraham with isaac and ishmael.

(v10) now he moves to another example with esau and jacob.

(v11) is this verse saying that before time, God chose jacob for heaven and esau for hell?? no, it is not. it is saying that before they were born, God sovereignly chose through which line He was going to bring the Messiah through. (interesting note: hebrews 10:9 shows how God took away the first to establish the second (covenant). the first in jewish culture was always the great son, the prize one, the head of the brothers. but God chose to bypass man's strength and take the second. He bypassed the flesh (esau) and chose the second (jacob). why do i believe that this is not talking about their personal salvation?? look at the next verse.

(v12) the older shall SERVE the younger. this was what was established. not the older was damned and the younger chosen for heaven. to say that is to miss the picture being drawn by paul. question: did esau ever serve jacob in his lifetime? answer no. this is not referring to individuals, but nations.

(v13) this quote is from malachai 1:2-3. malachai was saying to israel, didn't i chose you instead of the strength of your father (which was esau). He could have went through the line of esau's, but He chose to go through the lesser son's. (magnifying the spirit and not the flesh). jacob He loved and esau He hated. this word hated in hebrew has a wide range of meanings and can be anything from an enemy fiercely hating one to a man loving one less than another. this is what i believe malachai was saying. (much like when Jesus tells us that we must hate our mother and father). shall we hate them with fierce anger?? no, but we shall love them less right. that is what the writer was getting across. now, malachai says that God loved jacob and hated esau?? how did He love jacob? by choosing the younger to be greater than the older. He reversed all that was customary. jacob's line was through whom the Messiah came through. thus jacob or israel was the greater (spirit) and esau's line was less (flesh). God refuses to work through the flesh. keep reading in malachai verses 3-5. these verses show how esau's line was wicked and ungodly while israel's line was righteous and godly. no matter what esau's line may try to build or do, God will continue to overthrow it so that the Lord will be magnified beyond israel's border. does this passage say that esau could not be saved? no, there is no verse that said that esau or esau's line couldn't repent and serve the Lord. this passage is showing once again that God's way is through the spirit and not the flesh.

(v14) is God unrighteous in choosing the younger to be greater? no way. God is sovereign in whom He chooses to work through.

(v15) this verse is of the story with moses after he interceded with God not to leave israel. God tells him that He will not destroy them nor leave them. that He will have mercy on them and be with them. then moses ask to see His glory and then God says the quote from ex 33:19 about mercy and compassion.

(v16) after recalling 3 stories, paul shows that God's election for israel (to bring about the Messiah) is not about him who who wills or runs (this speaks of man's desire or effort), but on God's mercy and compassion. note: abraham willed that the Lord would just work through ismael and God refused.

(v17) now paul switches the focus of the passage onto the story of pharoah. why did God raise him up? that He might display His power and magnify His name with the bringing of His children out of egypt to the promised land.

(v18) this is a great verse. does God only desire to have mercy on a few?? (romans 11:32 "For God has shut them all up in disobedience, that He might have mercy on all"). was just some kinds of all men shut up in disobedience? no all men were so that God can have mercy on all men. now God in verse 18 says that He will have mercy on whom He wills and He will harden whom He wills. another question: did God harden pharoah's heart or did pharoah harden his own?? yes. pharoah refused to heed the word of God and hardened his heart, but God was in the hardening that israel might be brought forth from egypt. did God desire to have mercy on pharoah? yes, he is one of the all men that were shut up in disobedience. did God have mercy on pharoah? no. did God foreknow that pharoah would not choose Him and would not heed His word? yes. and God sovereignly worked to raise up this man who He knew would reject and harden his heart and thus be used of God to bring out His people israel. God is so great.

(v19) now he poses the question that he thinks the people may be thinking. then he goes on to an illustration of the potter and his clay.

(v20) this quote is from isaiah 29:16. this chapter is about God's revenge and judgement on jerusalem. the people in this chapter have forsaken God and God will take away their wisdom and understanding. then God tells them that the potter is not like the clay. the potter is in control and knows what He is doing. the clay is shown to be prideful here assuming that the potter has no understanding of what he is doing.

(v21) this question is answered with an obvious yes. the potter is sovereign over the clay. (note: carefully consider the illustration of the potter and the clay in jeremiah 18. the potter was making a vessel and it was ruined, then he remade it into something that pleased him. then jeremiah tells us that israel is the clay in God's hands and He will mold them. if they will repent of their sin, then God will relent from the disaster that the Lord thought to bring upon them. if they continue in their disobedience, then God will relent from doing them good. this shows us how God is in control of what we do and how He gives us a choice to be obedient or disobedient. He allows for the choice to be made and then shapens and molds how He sees fit.

(v22-23) note the patience and longsuffering of God with the vessels of wrath. this closely parrells 2 peter 3:9 that shows that God is not slack in His promise to come back, but is patient with the believers because He does not want anyman to perish. He does not desire the destruction of any man, so He is longsuffering toward mankind, that they may repent of their sin and receive God. question: does God fit man for destruction? never, satan is the thief who comes to kill, steal, and destroy. in fact God tells us in matt 25:41 that hell was designed for satan and his angels. isn't it interesting that He never says that hell was designed for man. why does He not say this?? because it was not designed for man. period. God always has and God always will desire that man be with Him and His Father in heaven, not in hell.

(v23) why is He so longsuffering to the ones who will be going to hell? that He might make manifest the riches of His glory on the ones who He knew would be saved before time.

then paul goes on to quote the hosea and isaiah and show how God planned before time to call not only jews, but also gentiles.

brother, i am sorry that this was so long, but i believe that you deserved a good explanation from me about these verses and i did not want to give you a half effort. i know and understand that you will disagree with me on a lot of the explanations on these verses and that is fine, i only ask that you be willing to look at these verses through only what the Holy Spirit is showing you and not a certain explanation because you have to affirm a certain doctrine. i love you brother and once again, i apologize jay for the length of this post and how long it took for me to write you about it. talk to you later.

 2007/7/30 0:34Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
did esau ever serve jacob in his lifetime? answer no. this is not referring to individuals, but nations.



I had a feeling we would get to Romans 9 sooner or later :-)

This is just a sporadic answer to some questions posed brother, I wanted to answer some of your points before I went to sleep.

In response to your question above, yes he did

Here-
Gen 27:37 And Isaac answered and said unto Esau, Behold, [b]I have made him(Jacob) thy lord,[/b] and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; and with corn and wine have I sustained him: and what shall I do now unto thee, my son?

Or here(nation wise)-
2Sa 8:14 And he put garrisons in Edom; throughout all Edom put he garrisons, and all they of Edom became David's servants. And the LORD preserved David whithersoever he went.

But the issue at stake in Romans 9 is posed in verse 6
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Paul is speaking in reference to all he has layed out in the previous chapter about the elect, and the sureness of their salvation (Romans 8;31-39).

Then he jumps into the fact that some, maybe even the majority of the Israelites are not saved thus raising the question, has God's word failed then? If the Jews who received the word, and all that Paul lays before them in verses 4 and 5, are not brought into this salvation, then is God's word really sure?

This is why Paul begins with
"they are not all Israel that are descended from Israel", or not all of national Israel are of the true Israel which is spiritual. So this is the basis of the argument Paul is presenting, has God's word failed because some are left out?

Quote:
(romans 11:32 "For God has shut them all up in disobedience, that He might have mercy on all")



But mercy does not necessarily mean salvation, and we must not read into this passage what is not clearly being said. Consider this parallel passage from Galatians-
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, [b]that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.[/b]

Quote:
did God desire to have mercy on pharaoh?



No-
Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, [b]see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go[/b]

And-
Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
Exo 7:3 [b]And I will harden Pharaoh's heart,[/b] and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Consider brother that God uses even men's base desires to further His plans. We would agree that the worst sin in the history of mankind was the Crucifixion of Christ, yet read these verses-
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 [b]Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:[/b]

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 [b]For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.[/b]

So we must ask ourselves where did sin come from? This is an important discussion all in itself.

Sin of course came from Satan, as he would have been the first of God's creatures to sin. but did God know that he would sin, and then bring sin into the human race? Of course He did, could He have not allowed it? Of course, but He does, and He uses it to fulfill His desires.

Of course, Christ was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the Earth, therefore we understand that God saw the redemptive process before there was even a fall, and put those who would be saved into Christ(in a sense) as we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Lord willing, I will continue in the morning. If not I, I'm sure jay has some light to shed on this.

Blessings brother.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/30 2:15Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Ephesians 1:11 says, "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

brother what were we predestined to?? we see from scripture that we were predestined to (1) be conformed to the image of His Son (rom 8) and (2) to the adoption of sons. this is predestination. predestination is not God arbitrarily choosing some for salvation and some to damnation. there is a difference between predestination and election. predestination is the act of God whereby He says that "All who are in Christ will be conformed to Christ image and that we will be adopted". thus predestination ensures or make certain or adoption when we receive the adoption, the redemption of our bodies. now to romans 8:29-30. first paul is showing us that whom God foreknew (this means foreknowledge not foreordination. strongs clearly says that) that God then predestined that they will be made like Christ. these were then called, jutified and glorified. these links in the chain are put together and should not be seperated.

brother predestination is like a train station that runs from chicago to st louis. the conductor has predestined that whoever will have a ticket, they will arrive at st louis. it matters little if a man is handicap, hurt, or physically fine, if they have a ticket for the conductor, then they will be there. this is an example of predestination. this is an act of God whereby God make certain the believers conformation and adoption. to make it say anymore than this is to confuse predestination and election.

you are corrct in that God does things according to the counsel of His will. this can certainly mean that He does need to ask us or double-check with us about how He is going to go about making something happen. does He need our counsel?? never. He does it according to His own perfect will. now that being said, He has desired to show us His perfect will sometimes that we may know Him better and His ways. salvation is one of those ways. He has repeatedly shown us that His perfect desire is for all men to come to repentance, but He has allowed (permitted) for man to reject.
Quote:
God desires Christ be the firstborn among many brethren and God sees to it that the elect will believe.

brother, i completely agree. and in this we can both rejoice and be glad. that God will make sure that the elect will be saved. praise God. talk to you later buddy.



 2007/7/30 8:43Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

brother jay, you are attending seminary, which one? is it a baptist one or a reformed one?? i don't know of many seminaries. i do have to admit something to you. i lived in alabama for 3 years attending a christian college and it was by tuscaloosa so everyone was an alabama fan. but because i love notre dame, i have always disliked the crimson tide. i also became an auburn tigers fan while i lived in alabama. so while everyone would shout "roll tide" i would yell back "war eagle". please don't hold that against me. back to the subject of romans 5.

Quote:
The question that needs a precise answer is this: Did He or didn't He? Did Christ actually make a substitutionary sacrifice for sins or didn't He? If He did, then it was not for all the world, for then all the world would be saved.”

i disagree. God has made salvation possible for all, but not effective to all. this has been noted in 1 timothy 4:10 "the savior of all men, especially those who believe". this verse clearly is contrasting the fact that Jesus is the savior of all the world in that He died for all mans' sins, but He is only the effective savior of those who believe. please notice how paul contrast the all men (world) vs especially those who believe (the elect). but brother, we do not teach universalism.
Quote:
For the Calvinist it is like a narrow bridge that goes all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great wide bridge that goes only half-way across.

brother the bridge is the same for both of us. the same number of people get on the bridge and get to the end. there is no difference in the bridge. the difference is in how many calvanist and non-calvanist believe God desired to be made across. but the bridge is the same for both (the elect will make it across).
Quote:
Why did Christ come to die? Did He come simply to make salvation possible, or did He come to actually obtain eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12)?

i believe personally that Christ came to do both. His death on the cross made salvation possible to mankind and obtained it for the elect. to deny either is to be unbalanced in my opinion. but like i said, that's my opinion.
Quote:
When the Apostles preached the Gospel, they did not say, "Christ died for all men everywhere, and it is up to you to make His work effective." They taught that Christ died for sinners, and that it was the duty of every man to repent and believe.

God died for sinners and we understand that all man sinned. where do you see the apostles saying "God died for some sinners, maybe He died for you and then again, maybe not". what we see in the world was that the apostles believed that God died to save sinners, so they preached and let God bring whom He foreseen from the foundation of the world.

brother jay, i apprciate talking to you so much. thank you for your graciousness in discussing this issue. it's been interesting and edifying.

 2007/7/30 9:26Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

LoveHim, we do disagree on a lot but praise God that we can discuss this as believers and seek to edify one another. These are the discussions that are profitable and I wish that there were more non-Calvinists like yourself.

I respect the person who looks at scripture, studies them intently and says, 'I don't see it.' I struggle with the person who says, 'I don't believe in predestination.' (As if the word is not in the bible.) Thank you brother.

We disagree on our interpretation of Romans 9 because you see the text speaking of Israel's election and I see the text speaking of Christian's election.

If you are interested, I have a personal bible study page that I would like to share with you on Romans 9. It helps me to study and dig deep into God's word.

It can be found here:
[url=http://thatjeremyguybible.blogspot.com/2006/08/romans-91-14-gods-sovereign-choice.html]Romans 9:1-14[/url]
[url=http://thatjeremyguybible.blogspot.com/2006/08/romans-914-19-is-god-unjust-in-his.html]Romans 9:14-19[/url]
[url=http://thatjeremyguybible.blogspot.com/2006/08/romans-9-19-31-fairness-of-god.html]Romans 9:19-31[/url]
[url=http://thatjeremyguybible.blogspot.com/2006/09/romans-930-33-gentiles-faith-and.html]Romans 9:30-33[/url]

P.S. Auburn??? :-P

 2007/7/30 9:52Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
In response to your question above, yes he did

Here-
Gen 27:37 And Isaac answered and said unto Esau, Behold, I have made him(Jacob) thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; and with corn and wine have I sustained him: and what shall I do now unto thee, my son?

in the scripture you listed, they do not show esau serving jacob. in fact in genesis when esau was coming to meet jacob, jacob bowed to esau and called him "my lord" (genesis 32:18 "then you shall say 'they are your sevant's jacob's. it is a present sent to my lord esau; and behold, he also is behind us") so esau did not serve jacob in his physical life. God was definitely referring to the nations that came out of jacob and esau.
Quote:
But mercy does not necessarily mean salvation, and we must not read into this passage what is not clearly being said

in the verses preceding these, paul says that because of israel's rejection, mercy has come to us that we may obtain mercy. this is obviously referring to salvation. please look it up for yourself (rom 11:25-32). so i do believe that God's perfect desire was for pharoah to be one who would've been saved. however knowing that he would harden his heart and disobey the word of God, God used him to ultimately bring out israel and magnify His name. pharoah hardened his heart (ex 8:15, 19, 32 10:35). we see pharoah hardening his heart and the Lord hardening it. we must understand that while pharoah had an option to repent, he was one who rejected God and his heart was hardened. the Lord foreknew this and put him in place to magnify His name.
Quote:
Sin of course came from Satan, as he would have been the first of God's creatures to sin. but did God know that he would sin, and then bring sin into the human race? Of course He did, could He have not allowed it? Of course, but He does, and He uses it to fulfill His desires.

if i am not mistaken, didn't calvin teach that God was responsible for bringing sin into the world. (i totally could be wrong, i am just asking). i agree that God uses sin to further His purposes like the cross with Christ.
Quote:
Of course, Christ was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the Earth, therefore we understand that God saw the redemptive process before there was even a fall, and put those who would be saved into Christ(in a sense) as we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

amen brother. with this we can agree totally agree on.

thank you brother roaringlamb, this has been enlightening and edifying. have a great day.






 2007/7/30 10:19Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

brother jay, i will try very hard to go through the study of what you listed. can't while i am at work, but will try hard over the next couple days to do so when i get a chance at night.

thank you for the discussion as well. you and roaringlamb have been great to talk with. love you guys.

 2007/7/30 10:21Profile





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