SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Five Points of Calvinism Considered By David Servant

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 Next Page )
PosterThread
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
To me, it seems that man in his natural state wants to do what Adam did, and hide in fig leaves.

i totally agree. so the question i guess i am asking you is...

*what is natural man able to do with the power of the Holy Spirit?

*with that i mean, do you believe that natural man has the ability with the power of the Holy Spirit to place the faith given to him toward Christ?

here is what i am getting at with the OT saints. they were not born again. they were saved, but but indwelt by the Holy Spirit. yet they were still able to place their God-given faith in God. do you see that??
Quote:
This is fun, as it is causing me see things that I may not have thought of before, thanks.

me too. thank you for being so willing to look and talk about this stuff. this is fun brother.

love you guys.

 2007/7/28 16:01Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
here is what i am getting at with the OT saints. they were not born again. they were saved, but but indwelt by the Holy Spirit. yet they were still able to place their God-given faith in God. do you see that??



I understand, but we are dealing with two differing covenants.

Consider that the new covenant was that God Himself would remove the heart of stone, and replace it with a new heart of flesh. He would write His laws upon that heart, wash with clean water, and cleanse from all idols.

This is why Jesus marveled that Nicodemas did not understand what He was saying about regeneration, and the new birth.

Gotta run some errands with my wife, be back later :)


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/28 16:34Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
I understand, but we are dealing with two differing covenants.

so in the OT man was able to with the Sprit's leading repent and place their faith in God, but now under the new they can't?? under both covenants, man is commanded to repent and believe. and God has always allowed man to chose whether they will accept or reject.
Quote:
Consider that the new covenant was that God Himself would remove the heart of stone, and replace it with a new heart of flesh. He would write His laws upon that heart, wash with clean water, and cleanse from all idols.

this new covenant is what God will do in man to ensure that man will continue to walk in His ways. this new covenant deals with the man after he is regenerated.

believe me, i am sooo thankful for the new covenant. He is so faithful isn't he brother?? thanks for responding. take care brother.

 2007/7/28 20:27Profile









 Re:

Whosoever Will:

Numbers 21:5-9

5And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.


[b]John 3:14-15

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.[/b]

*Forgivness of sin* has nothing to do with Covenants, dispensations etc. It has to do with Jesus Christ, Promised in Genesis 3:15, a redeemer to save us from sin and death.

Love in Christ
Katy-did ;-)

 2007/7/29 10:31
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
so in the OT man was able to with the Spirit's leading repent and place their faith in God, but now under the new they can't?? under both covenants, man is commanded to repent and believe. and God has always allowed man to chose whether they will accept or reject.



Well, this is difficult. The OT was primarily written about God's people who were in a "covenant" with Him, and the only parallel for us would be Christians(who have entered into a covenant with God as well). So when the commands are given to repent, it is because they have neglected God, or an aspect of His law. But the way of salvation as we know it was not clear to them.

I don't really know how we would apply the OT to an unbelieving person as it mainly speaks of a people who knew God, who rebelled against God, who were in covenant with God etc. It is the story of God's historic plan of redemption for His people.

Faith has always been the key. But I would say that in the OT faith was based upon a differing revelation, as God Himself spoke to men. This was a huge difference compared to the myriads of gods surrounding Israel. The deities of neighboring people did not speak, nor did they provide salvation, or confirm covenant with people. But the God of Israel spoke to His people.

Quote:
this new covenant is what God will do in man to ensure that man will continue to walk in His ways. this new covenant deals with the man after he is regenerated.



See this is where we disagree. I say that this speaks of the work of regeneration that must occur so man will believe, and out of this comes faith, repentance, good works.

Consider the following in John 3-
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, [b]Except a man be born again,[/b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Nicodemas is obviously confused about the new birth Jesus is speaking of, as he thinks of natural birth. But watch what happens.

After reiterating the need of new birth, or birth from above, Nicodemas is still confused, and says, " how can these things be?"

Now watch Jesus' response-
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, [b]Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?[/b]

There was something from the OT that Nicodemas was being held accountable for by the Lord, something that Jesus was amazed that Nicodemas did not understand. That was the idea of regeneration.

But how could Christ expect Nicodemas to know this? What Scriptures were there to show this work?

One of the sections of Scripture would have to be here-
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 [b]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.[/b]
Eze 36:26 [b]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.[/b]
Eze 36:27 [b]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.[/b]
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Eze 36:29 [b]I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:[/b] and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

The regeneration of a heart is here described, though there are other passages in the OT that speak about the necessity of "change", such as
Jer 13:23 [b]Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.[/b]

And-
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

So we know that this was presented to them in a veiled sort of way.

But we know that this is fulfilled now by this verses-
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; [b]I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:[/b]
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

And-
Heb 10:16 [b]This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;[/b]
Heb 10:17 [b]And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.[/b]
Heb 10:18 [b]Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.[/b]

So, I really think that the issue before us, is under this working of God, how does a man come to faith? Is it something inherently in man, or something that must come from without?

(By faith, I mean saving faith) :-D


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/29 13:48Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.



I am glad you used this verse. But may I draw your attention to something in it?

The emphasis is not upon "whosoever", but rather "whosoever believeth". Or as the Greek would say "the believing ones".

It is the same with John 3:16
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, [b]that whosoever believeth[/b] in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

One cannot put the emphasis upon whosoever, and say that because of this, everyone will be saved, because that is reading into the text what is not there.

The text is saying though that whosoever believes are promised something.

At the end of the chapter comes an important passage that proves the point that whosoever is not the main point-
John 3:36 [b]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:[/b] and [b]he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.[/b]

See the contrast here? The whosoever that believes of course is the first group, but the second group is the whosoever that does not believe. From this we can say that whosoever then does not mean all men will be saved.

Should all men hear the Gospel? Absolutely, a million times over if possible, but that will not change a man's heart. Hearing alone(please note Romans 10:17 is not referring to those who simply "hear" with the natural ear) is not enough to believe, the hearing must meet with a heart that has been regenerated and receives the word of God as truth. The heart that is regenerated, is the good soil that the seed can grow in and produce fruit.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/29 14:01Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
One cannot put the emphasis upon whosoever, and say that because of this, everyone will be saved, because that is reading into the text what is not there.

Quote:
From this we can say that whosoever then does not mean all men will be saved.

brother, do you think that we believe that all men will be saved?? we don't at all. i am just saying this because it seems from these 2 replies that you might possibly think that. i just want you to know that we do not believe that at all.

brother let me ask you this. do you believe that God can desire something and also permit or allow the contradictory thing to happen?? maybe better said would be, do you believe that God desires us to not sin and that we should walk in the Spirit, but He also allows man to be disobedient and walk in the flesh?? is it His pefect desire that we sin?? God forbid, but He still allows it right?? this is what we mean when we say that God desires all men to be saved, but He has allowed that men will accept or reject Him.

there is so much to talk about, i wish you or jaysaved were here in person so we could pray and read the word together. love you guys.

 2007/7/29 16:18Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
brother let me ask you this. do you believe that God can desire something and also permit or allow the contradictory thing to happen??



Yes. For example, God desires that no one be murdered, but does not stop murder from happening.

This raises a very interesting point about God. There are (at least) two desires of God. The desires that come out in the commandments and the desires for the Earth to be created.

In the former, God allows a person to not follow His desires and the latter, God commands something to come into being and it complies.

The question for us to consider is which desire(the former or the latter) does salvation fall?

LoveHim, you and others would say the former desire. God commands all men to repent just as He commands all men to not steal, it is up to man to obey.

Roaringlamb and I would say the latter desire because when God wants to accomplish something, nothing stands in His way.

We can all point to our 'proof texts' in scripture to backup our points, but for me this text in scripture makes it as plain as day. In regards to salvation, Ephesians 1:11 says, "[color=000099]In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,[/color]

We clearly see that it is God who works all things (in this context Salvation) according to the counsel of His will. If this is true (as I believe it is) then we see that Salvation is a matter of God's will...God's desire. This predestination into Christ is God's desire in that God brings it to being. God desires Christ be the firstborn among many brethren and God sees to it that the elect will believe.

 2007/7/29 22:30Profile









 Re:

It is Jesus Christ that was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world.....and WE, those who have put their faith in Christ Crucified, who have been predestined TO BE CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE.

1 Peter 1:19-21

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

[b]1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[/b]

 2007/7/29 22:50
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

LoveHim, I am in Louisville attending Seminary. I am originally from Tennessee, but my main sports team is the Crimson Tide of Alabama. (Weird huh)

Anyways, in response to what you said about Romans 5:

Quote:
that phrase came upon in the literal translation of the greek-english interlinear bible shows that 'came upon' was like 'came toward' or 'was toward'. pretty much like the NKJV says 'came to'. so through adam's sin, death came to all men. how does man get this death of adam?? by their first birth. likewise through Jesus's righteous act, justification of life came to all men. how does man receive this justification?? by their second birth. i believe that this passage fits in squarely with the rest of scripture that shows that Jesus came and died for the world, but his death is only effective in the lives of those who receive Him. please look at verse 17. who are the one's who will reign in life through Jesus?? the ones who receive His grace and His righteousness.



We agree that Jesus' death is only effective in the lives of those who are in Him. We disagree on whether or not Jesus died for the world. I have posted the following before, but I would like your thoughts on this:

From Edwin H. Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1980):

“The question that needs a precise answer is this: Did He or didn't He? Did Christ actually make a substitutionary sacrifice for sins or didn't He? If He did, then it was not for all the world, for then all the world would be saved.”

From (Lorraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Phillipsburg, New Jersey: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1932) p. 153.)

“Let there be no misunderstanding at this point. The Arminian limits the atonement as certainly as does the Calvinist. The Calvinist limits the extent of it in that he says it does not apply to all persons...while the Arminian limits the power of it, for he says that in itself it does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits it quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the Arminian limits it qualitatively, but not quantitatively. For the Calvinist it is like a narrow bridge that goes all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great wide bridge that goes only half-way across. As a matter of fact, the Arminian places more severe limitations on the work of Christ than does the Calvinist.”

From James White:
“Why did Christ come to die? Did He come simply to make salvation possible, or did He come to actually obtain eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12)? Let's consider some passages from Scripture in answer to this question.
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost (Luke 19:10).
Here the Lord Jesus Himself speaks of the reason for His coming. He came to seek and to save the lost. Few have a problem with His seeking; many have a problem with the idea that He actually accomplished all of His mission. Jesus, however, made it clear that He came to actually save the lost. He did this by His death.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners---of whom I am the worst (1 Timothy 1:15).
Paul asserts that the purpose of Christ's coming into the world was to actually save sinners. Nothing in Paul's words leads us to the conclusion that is so popular today---that Christ's death simply makes salvation a possibility rather than a reality. Christ came to save. So, did He? And how did He? Was it not by His death? Most certainly. The atoning death of Christ provides forgiveness of sins for all those for whom it is made. That is why Christ came.”

Conclusion
Some object to the doctrine of limited atonement on very pragmatic grounds. "The doctrine destroys evangelism, because you cannot tell people that Christ died for them, because you don't know!" Yet, we ask, is there an advantage in presenting to men an atonement that is theoretical, a Savior whose work is incomplete, and a gospel that is but a possibility? What kind of proclamation will God honor with His Spirit: one that is tailored to seek "success," or one that is bound to the truth of the Word of God? When the Apostles preached the Gospel, they did not say, "Christ died for all men everywhere, and it is up to you to make His work effective." They taught that Christ died for sinners, and that it was the duty of every man to repent and believe. They knew that only God's grace could bring about repentance and faith in the human heart. And far from that being a *hindrance* to their evangelistic work, it was the power behind it! They proclaimed a *powerful* Savior, whose work is all sufficient, and who saves men totally and completely! They knew that God was about bringing men to Himself, and, since He is the sovereign of the universe, there is no power on earth that will stay His hand! Now there is a solid basis for evangelism! And what could be more of a comfort to the heart that is racked with guilt than to know that Christ has died for sinners, and that His work is not just theoretical, but is real?
The Church needs to challenge the world again with the daring proclamation of a gospel that is offensive---offensive because it speaks of God saving those whom He will, offensive because it proclaims a sovereign Savior who redeems His people.

God Bless!

 2007/7/29 22:58Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy