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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Five Points of Calvinism Considered By David Servant

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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
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Kentucky

 Re:

Great discussion guys!

 2007/7/25 14:39Profile
LoveHim
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Joined: 2007/6/14
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brother jaysaved and roaringlamb,

after thinking about this subject much, i have one question for you guys.

*does God desire all men to be saved??

when scripture says that God desires all men to be saved (and all men here in context really means all men), does He really desire all men to be saved??

 2007/7/25 17:37Profile
roaringlamb
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I want to answer this wisely as this is a very difficult subject.

Let us think about the work of the Cross for a moment. Now we know that Christ's death is sufficient to save galaxies of people, and I wholeheartedly believe this. But we must come the question, did Christ die for the sin of all men that ever would live?

If we say yes, then none would perish, because unbelief is a sin, and if Christ indeed died for every sin of every man, then every man would be saved.

So now we ask, what limits the effectivenes of Christ's death? It is after all powerful enough to save everyone, but it does not.

There are two choices here-
1)God foreseeing who would believe elected them and made the benefits of the death of Christ theirs on the basis of foreseen faith.

Of course this still limits the work of Christ to only the elect, but man must choose, and God elects on unfair grounds as no man differs from another as all have sinned.

2)God has elected freely in His good pleasure those who would partake of Christ's work, not because of anything good or bad in them but solely because of His grace. He then applies the work by the Holy Spirit to those whom He elected.

Either way, there is a limitation. In one man limits it, in the other God limits it.

Many have no problem with man limiting it because then man can still choose by his free will, but it seems that when we say God limits it, people say, "unfair!"

Some limit the sufficiency, others the efficiency.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 17:50Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
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LoveHim, It does not appear that anyone on the non-reformed side of this issue is persuaded that "all men" and "the world" can very likely refer to people groups ( Jews and Gentiles ) or classes of people ( kings, rulers, slaves, males females ) as is scripturally supportable. This is confusing given the times in which these passsages were written and given the intense debate at the time concerning who the gospel applied to. Notwithstanding this, another scriptural truth is certainly valid that God can have conflicting desires. He desires mercy. Yet, at the very same time He desires justice. Two very opposite desires co-existing. The issue is not what are His desires for they are many. He desires men obey, repent, be saved, not perish, live, and yet they don't. The question remains why? The answer for the free will position is man's free will choice. The answer for the reformed position is God's sovereign election.

 2007/7/25 18:18Profile
LoveHim
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Quote:
LoveHim, It does not appear that anyone on the non-reformed side of this issue is persuaded that "all men" and "the world" can very likely refer to people groups ( Jews and Gentiles ) or classes of people ( kings, rulers, slaves, males females ) as is scripturally supportable. This is confusing given the times in which these passsages were written and given the intense debate at the time concerning who the gospel applied to. Notwithstanding this, another scriptural truth is certainly valid that God can have conflicting desires. He desires mercy. Yet, at the very same time He desires justice. Two very opposite desires co-existing. The issue is not what are His desires for they are many. He desires men obey, repent, be saved, not perish, live, and yet they don't. The question remains why? The answer for the free will position is man's free will choice. The answer for the reformed position is God's sovereign election.

brother i have no problem stating that sometimes when the scripture says all it may be referring to all of a group or something like that. but where scripture says all and means all, are reformed people prepared to admit that sometimes and even often all means all??

so now that you and roaringlamb have not given a definite answer, i will ask it again..

*does God desire all men to be saved??

 2007/7/25 18:57Profile
roaringlamb
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I did brother. I say that the revealed will of God is that men repent and believe the Gospel, they will not because they cannot. Thus in the secret will of God He has elected those whom He will, and He changes their hearts to believe. This in no way does any damage to their will as any desire to repent, or come to Christ though it seems to be of man, is from God.

We will never agree on this if we do not first agree on the effect of the fall of man, thus no matter how many points I make, you will reply to the contrary supposing that man is not dead, but rather wounded.

This is the crux of the matter, if man is dead, he needs life. If only wounded, he only needs a little help to get on the right path.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 19:45Profile
JaySaved
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Quote:
*does God desire all men to be saved??



If you are referring to 2 Peter 3:9 then I have answered this before but will gladly do again:

2 Peter 3:9 is a beautiful verse that demonstrates the love of God.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Some people emphasize the words 'not willing' and say that God is so patient and not willing that any person in the world perish that he is waiting for all men to come to repentance. But this is not really what the verse is saying.

I affirm that the Lord does not delight in the death of anyone, but take a closer look at the verse.

To whom is God longsuffering? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved mentioned in verse 8. "But, beloved"

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you."

To whom is Peter writing this letter? Those who come to a saving knowledge of Christ--Christians.
2 Peter 1:1 - "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say about the intended audience? 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."

Peter is not saying in this verse that God is patient with all men hoping that every person comes to repentance. Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish before the second coming and that all of the elect come to repentance.


I will answer your question very bluntly. No, God does not "desire" that every single person who has ever lived would be saved. I will give you two examples: Pharaoh and Esau. This may not be 'fair', but it is biblical.

 2007/7/25 21:22Profile
LoveHim
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Quote:
If you are referring to 2 Peter 3:9 then I have answered this before but will gladly do again

i was actually talking about 1 timothy 2:3-4. "for this (making prayers for kings and all in authority, that we might lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverance) is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth".
Quote:
I affirm that the Lord does not delight in the death of anyone

here is what i don't get. if you understand that the Lord does not delight in the death of the wicked, they why do you say that God chose some to be saved and passed over others leaving them to perish with no chance at eternal life.(i am talking merely of "he'll be saved and ..he won't). seems to me that if the Lord does not delight in the death of the wicked like He says, then He would give all men a chance to repent and turn to Him (and many scriptures say He did). if they don't, He is not held responsible. but if He does not give all men a chance, He is responsible.
Quote:
No, God does not "desire" that every single person who has ever lived would be saved.

brother, thank you for your honesty. everyone else was dancing around the question, but you answered it right according to your doctrine. the logical conclusion of your doctrine is that God does not desire all men to be saved. i understand why you believe that, but i believe that it is clearly contradictory to the bible, even the verse i wrote above (1 timothy 2:3-4).
Quote:
I will give you two examples: Pharaoh and Esau. This may not be 'fair', but it is biblical.

is romans 9 the whole of the bible?? no it is not. scripture nowhere shows that before they were born that God chose jacob for eternal life and esau for hell. in a little bit i wil try to give you my understanding of romans 9 as it relates to the word. thank you for your response brother jay.

 2007/7/26 9:01Profile
JaySaved
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Quote:
i was actually talking about 1 timothy 2:3-4. "for this (making prayers for kings and all in authority, that we might lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverance) is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth".



1 Timothy 2:3-4, “This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

I will admit that the phrase “all men” can mean every single person who ever lived and I hope that non-Calvinist's can admit the phrase also can mean certain groups (or sorts) of men.

For example, in Mark 11:30-32 Jesus says, “The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me. And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.”
Did every single person who ever lived count John to be a prophet? No, certainly the Romans did not. It was only a certain group that the Pharisees did not want to offend who counted John as a prophet.

Mark 13:13 says, “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Does this mean that every single person who ever lived will hate Jesus’ followers? Of course not. No one believes that.

Also, Acts 21:28 says, “Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.”
Did Paul teach ever single person who ever lived? Of course not. No one believes that.
So why do non-Calvinists refuse to believe that 1 Timothy 2:3-6 can refer to all types (or sorts) of men?

Now that I have shown that there are at least two definitions for the phrase “all men”, what is the proper definition for 1 Timothy 2? For this answer we need to look at verses 1-2,
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.”
Paul is singling out a particular group (kings and all that are in authority). Why is Paul requesting prayer for this particular group? “That we may lead a quiet and peaceable life” In verse 3 Paul says that praying for this group is “good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;” Then in verse 4 Paul says that God “…will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” Now, taking verse 4 and reading it out of context it is easy to assume that God will have every single person to be saved, but we know that not every single person will be saved because they do not believe.

Some believe that God desires every person to be saved but cannot save every person because of man’s free will. But Ephesians 1:11 says, “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” This verse says that God works out things according to His Will not ours.
So, if God wills that all men be saved then all men be saved. If ‘all men’ mean every single person then 1 Timothy 2:4 teaches universalism. Since universalism is false, we must conclude that ‘all men’ refers only to types (or sorts) of men. So what is Paul saying to Timothy in verse 4? First, Paul has just finished asking Timothy to have his church pray for all “who are in authority”. This is a sort of men. Verses 5-6 says, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Then Paul says to Timothy, “Whereunto (For this reason) I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.” The Gentiles is another sort of men. In summary, Paul is talking about sorts of men, not every single person. Paul is reminding Timothy to pray for all sorts of men even Gentile kings and all who are in authority so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life and that God desires all sorts of men come to a knowledge of the truth. Paul reminds us of what Peter has earlier said, “God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.” (Acts 10:35)

 2007/7/26 9:28Profile
JaySaved
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Quote:
I wrote:
I affirm that the Lord does not delight in the death of anyone

LoveHim wrote:
here is what i don't get. if you understand that the Lord does not delight in the death of the wicked, they why do you say that God chose some to be saved and passed over others leaving them to perish with no chance at eternal life.(i am talking merely of "he'll be saved and ..he won't). seems to me that if the Lord does not delight in the death of the wicked like He says, then He would give all men a chance to repent and turn to Him (and many scriptures say He did). if they don't, He is not held responsible. but if He does not give all men a chance, He is responsible.



There is nothing contradictory about God not taking delight in the death of the wicked and punishing the wicked. God is not responsible for any man's sin.

We look at this from two different angles:
1. You say, "It is unfair for God to choose one person over another for salvation."
2. I say, "God has the right to do whatever He wishes with His creation." Romans 9:21 says, "[color=000099]Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?[/color]"

Quote:
is romans 9 the whole of the bible?? no it is not. scripture nowhere shows that before they were born that God chose jacob for eternal life and esau for hell. in a little bit i wil try to give you my understanding of romans 9 as it relates to the word. thank you for your response brother jay.



Romans 9 is not the 'whole of the bible', but it is in the bible and is inerrant scripture.

Before we go any further, I must clarify something about Esau. God did not choose Esau for hell. Esau was headed to hell on his own. It is God who choose Jacob and passed over Esau.

If you do not like my usage of Romans 9, then let me use another part of scripture.
Genesis 25:23 [color=000099]And the LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger."[/color]

The first objection from non-Calvinists is this: "God clearly is speaking of nations and not individuals. Election is national, not personal."
But notice that before a nation is chosen...a person is chosen. God loved Jacob, chose Jacob, and gave grace to Jacob. God did not do any of this to Esau, thereby in essence hating Esau as the prophet Malachi spoke.

 2007/7/26 9:42Profile





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