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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Five Points of Calvinism Considered By David Servant

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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
This doesn't make sense. Because if Pharaoh is totally depraved he could not turn to God if he wanted to. So why would God have to harden his heart to prevent him from doing something he couldn't do?



I should have worded that phrase differently. I should have said, "I am not saying that God is responsible for Pharaoh's sin, but I am saying that God removed His restraint upon Pharaoh so that Pharaoh could follow the wicked desires of his heart more fully."

What I am saying is this, according to Romans 9:17-21 "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?"

Pharaoh was 'raised up' for a purpose. That purpose was to be against the Jews during the Exodus. God is not responsible for Pharaoh's sin, but used Pharaoh's sin (and even removed His grace from Pharaoh) in order to fulfill His purpose.

This is what Romans is teaching.

 2007/7/25 12:57Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I know you're not looking for this but that was a well thought through, balanced, non-agressive response to the article. Thank you and not just because I agree with your Scriptural interpretations. God Bless. Your efforts and time are appreciated.



Thanks whyme. I just want the truth of the bible to be known. This issue is difficult because we don't think it makes God fair. The problem (as I see it) is that we are too ensconced in our culture's and society's idea of 'fairness' that we miss the truth of Scripture. Just a few years ago I would have been on the other side of this issue so I know the objections.

 2007/7/25 13:00Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
This doesn't make sense. Because if Pharaoh is totally depraved he could not turn to God if he wanted to. So why would God have to harden his heart to prevent him from doing something he couldn't do?



Maybe jay is getting at the fact that God withheld grace from Pharaoh. I don't know, and I'm sure jay will answer accordingly.

Brother jay thank you for your responses to this.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 13:02Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
He is always free to choose what he most desires—as long as the ability to choose is present.


brother don't you see that calvinism does not allow for choice to be present for all in the salvation process. it declares that some will be "drawn by the Father" and be saved and others will never be convicted or "drawn by God". that they never had the chance to repent and yet they shall still perish forever. that doctrine is partiality and God being a respector of persons which we know God is not.
Quote:
It is for this reason that the saving Grace extended by God is Irresistible.


you say that there is resistable and irresistable grace, but scripture only shows that God's grace can either be accepted or rejected. God's grace has appeared to all men.

titus 2:11 "for the grace of God that BRINGS SALVATION has appeared to ALL MEN".
Quote:
Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”


what does dead mean?? without life right. before Christ we were living in sin and without the life of God within us. (v4)"but God, who is rich in mercy (who wants to have mercy on all- rom 11:32), because of His great love (which He demonstrated when He died for the sins of the whole world- 1 john 2:2) with which He loved us, (v5)even when we were dead (without life) in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (eph 2:4-5)

dead in scripture has NEVER meant completely UNABLE to do ANYTHING.

to be dead to God and dead in sin means that we don't have the life of Christ within us. it means that we live in sin and sin is our master.

to be dead to sin means that the power of sin is broken and we are no longer slaves to unrighteousness, but to God. we are no longer held captive by the power of sin.

here is an analogy:

say a man is drowning in water and the Rescuer has commanded that all men that want to be saved should cry for help and believe on Him and He will save them.

calvinism says that the Rescuer commands the same thing, but has only given voices to whomever He wanted to and everyone else that did not get a voice is left to perish.

Those who believe that all men can choose says that the Rescuer has given a voice to all and some will see the Rescuer and cry out while others will see the Rescuer and just choose to continue drowning and be left to perish.

which example do the scriptures show?? the second example is clearly shown through scripture.

brother, shall i punish my 6 month old son because he doesn't walk and talk??

shall i condemn him for not being able to understand and do things like my 3 year old??

never. i would never ask or command my children to do things that they cannot and scripture is clear that when the Lord commands us to repent and believe, then He has given us the capacity to do so.

 2007/7/25 13:45Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
brother, shall i punish my 6 month old son because he doesn't walk and talk??

shall i condemn him for not being able to understand and do things like my 3 year old??



No, and neither does God. But your example is not good in that all men are not God's children. Men are not children of God until the new birth.

Either way, what if you see your child headed for an electric outlet with a fork, do you intervene?(I think you would) But some might say, how dare you assert your authority, and power over that child, you infrnged upon his will.

You may answer, "yes but his will was set on what would destroy him, and because I love him, I intervened."

Now can you do this for every child that wants to stick forks into outlets? No because they are not your children, you have no say in their lives.

I think the point is clear.
Man is like that child, the will is set upon that which would destroy him. God will intervene in the lives of those he has chosen, because they are His from the foundation of the Earth. The others, he simply passes over, because they are not His children.




_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 14:03Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I wrote:

He is always free to choose what he most desires—as long as the ability to choose is present.

LoveHim wrote:
brother don't you see that calvinism does not allow for choice to be present for all in the salvation process. it declares that some will be "drawn by the Father" and be saved and others will never be convicted or "drawn by God". that they never had the chance to repent and yet they shall still perish forever. that doctrine is partiality and God being a respector of persons which we know God is not.



John 6:44 is clear "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Clearly the HIM raised on the last day is the same HIM who is drawn. Jesus clearly says:
1. No one comes to me unless the Father FIRST draws him.
2. Everyone who is drawn to the Son is raised on the last day.

Brother, your protest is not with "Calvinism", but with Scripture.

Quote:
I wrote:

It is for this reason that the saving Grace extended by God is Irresistible.

LoveHime wrote:
you say that there is resistable and irresistable grace, but scripture only shows that God's grace can either be accepted or rejected. God's grace has appeared to all men.

titus 2:11 "for the grace of God that BRINGS SALVATION has appeared to ALL MEN".



God grace is extended to all types of men. No, I am not reading this into the text, I am using the context to interpret the text. The context of Titus 2 is the teaching of sound doctrine to various types of people (i.e., Young men, old men, young women, etc.). This applies to Saving Grace in that it is no longer limited to the Jewish nation, but now to all types of people in other nations. Christ came and brought salvation to not only Jews but also Gentiles. This was the most difficult thing for the 1st Century jewish believer to grasp. Ephesians 2:13-16, “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.”
Revelation 5:9 provides a beautiful picture what Christ accomplished on the cross. “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation”
Acts 10:34-35 also records this truth when Peter was speaking to Cornelius, “So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.” God shows no partiality in that now there is no more distinction between nations.

Irresistible grace is found in Romans 8:29-30 in which all who are called are justified.

Quote:
I wrote:

Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”

LoveHim wrote:
what does dead mean?? without life right. before Christ we were living in sin and without the life of God within us. (v4)"but God, who is rich in mercy (who wants to have mercy on all- rom 11:32), because of His great love (which He demonstrated when He died for the sins of the whole world- 1 john 2:2) with which He loved us, (v5)even when we were dead (without life) in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (eph 2:4-5)

dead in scripture has NEVER meant completely UNABLE to do ANYTHING.



Tell that to Lazarus.

Quote:
to be dead to God and dead in sin means that we don't have the life of Christ within us. it means that we live in sin and sin is our master.

to be dead to sin means that the power of sin is broken and we are no longer slaves to unrighteousness, but to God. we are no longer held captive by the power of sin.

here is an analogy:

say a man is drowning in water and the Rescuer has commanded that all men that want to be saved should cry for help and believe on Him and He will save them.

calvinism says that the Rescuer commands the same thing, but has only given voices to whomever He wanted to and everyone else that did not get a voice is left to perish.

Those who believe that all men can choose says that the Rescuer has given a voice to all and some will see the Rescuer and cry out while others will see the Rescuer and just choose to continue drowning and be left to perish.

which example do the scriptures show?? the second example is clearly shown through scripture.

brother, shall i punish my 6 month old son because he doesn't walk and talk??

shall i condemn him for not being able to understand and do things like my 3 year old??

never. i would never ask or command my children to do things that they cannot and scripture is clear that when the Lord commands us to repent and believe, then He has given us the capacity to do so.



I prefer brother roaringlamb's response to this myself. I can't remember exactly how it went, maybe roaringlamb can help me on this.

 2007/7/25 14:05Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
never. i would never ask or command my children to do things that they cannot and scripture is clear that when the Lord commands us to repent and believe, then He has given us the capacity to do so.



Brother, every single person who desires to repent can repent and be forgiven. God does not turn away anyone who desires forgiveness.

There is a popular analogy against Calvinism that goes like this:

A train heading to heaven is leaving the station, a man walks up to it and asks, "Can I get on this train?" God then replies, "No, you must get on the train heading to hell." "But I don't want on that train, I want on this train."

This example is absurd because Calvinism teaches all the "whosoever wills" in scripture! Every single person who repents will be saved. Every single person who believes will be saved. No one who desires holiness will be turned away. The problem is that not everyone desires repentance, belief, or holiness.

 2007/7/25 14:13Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
You may answer, "yes but his will was set on what would destroy him, and because I love him, I intervened."

and God has intervened for all mankind when He died for the sins of the world. He is the "Savior of the world" (1 john 4:14)
Quote:
The others, he simply passes over, because they are not His children.

therein lies the whole debate. but it is of no use as many on another thread have noted.

you will say that the Father has to "draw a man to be saved". i will show that Jesus said that if He is lifted up, He will draw all men unto Him. You will counter with scripture and then i will do the same. i think i am done countering. but i will read all that jaysaved wrote because you guys are my brothers and i do want to understand your reasonings, though i will disagree with them.

love you guys.

 2007/7/25 14:20Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Jay Saved correctly from Scripture states that regenerate men choose God freely in accordance with their new will. He also correctly states that unregenerate men freely choose against God.

The "non-Calvinist" calls this theological position forced love. I suggest this is a disingenuine argument. If God saved everyone against their will to go to heaven I truly don't think one person would object. After all, saving a person who desires with all their heart to commit suicide is not objectionable and none would argue against the proposition that choosing Hell is suicide. Truly, once a Hell bound person were in Heaven, he would gladly thank God choosing him in spite of any bystanders accusation of "force". So the real debate is not over forcing someone to choose God against their will even if that were true. The real debate is only over whether it is fair for God to choose some and not all.

I think again that JaySaved has correctly pointed out that mercy is mercy and grace is grace because it is undeserved and accordingly you can only conclude from God's word that Hell is deserved and Heaven is undeserved. I rest in God's word that if man receives what is undeserved through regeneration then not all are entitled to salvation and fairness has little and really nothing to do with it.

 2007/7/25 14:22Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

There is also another illustration in which a man comes to the door of heaven, and is banging on it, and pleading to be let in. The Jesus opens it and says, "let me check my list."
"I don't see your name here, you cannot come in."

Of course this illustration is only based upon false ideas, and completely overlooks this verse-
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

And it does not take into consideration that men are not begging at the door to be let in, but are rather spitting upon it, and mocking it.

That is until a new heart is given to them, and then they desire to come to the door, and are let in!


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 14:26Profile





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