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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Five Points of Calvinism Considered By David Servant

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
And if they don't repent...they go to hell.



Can you show where that is in this text? Or to any of the churches in Revelation?

I know it speaks about removing the candlestick, but that is not referring to individuals, but rather churches. That would also negate other verses that show the completeness of salvation, predestined, called, justified, glorified.(Romans 8:29,30)


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/8/5 20:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:
This is spoken to a group of Christians, so it does not fit what you are trying to make it say.



Those who believe in Calvinism also believe God is going to spew some out of His mouth? How can this be? If He elected you without your will's consent, He can't keep you too without your consent?

Please explain!
In Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/6 7:15









 Re:

Quote:
I know it speaks about removing the candlestick, but that is not referring to individuals, but rather churches. That would also negate other verses that show the completeness of salvation, predestined, called, justified, glorified.(Romans 8:29,30
)




Exactly, and that is why this is a call to salvation, because those who are already saved Romans 8:29,30 need no such rebuke.

It's hard for Calvinism to understand whosoever will, and because of that, will never really understand verses as these in Revelation to the Churches.

One such Church, if applied this way could be the Church in America, also like the Laodicea’s, is rich, wealthy, feels they have need of nothing. Oh how I remember growing up hearing how blessed we are in America, how God has so greatly blessed us, and we should be thankful that we were born here and not anywhere else. Well, when I was a child I thought as a Child, but now I've put away childish ideas. With the name it claim it Gospel and many other false Gospels, we want to just be nice to one another, get along, atta boy brother attitudes of compromise, and this is what is called luke warm. We stand for nothing...Well not all. But those who do stand up and tell the truth are persecuted...by who.....luke warm Christians who say...hay, don't rock the boat...who do you think you are saying that? etc, etc. Well, not all in America are luke warm compromisers, but for the most part, who here is willing to lay down their life for the Gospel? In other Countries you see many many dying for that privilege.

Here?

Great wealth is deceiving, and a test as well.

Does God Love America...absolutely!

Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/6 8:21
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

No one is elected without their 'wills' consent. No one is brought to a saving knowledge of God 'kicking and screaming'. Every person who comes to Christ gladly comes and finds grace. Every person who does not come to Christ desires not to come to Christ and will not find grace.

As for the spewing out of Christ's mouth, this has happened to the church in Laodecia. And God could do it to the church in America...would that mean that there are no Christians in America? I don't know anyone who would believe that.

 2007/8/6 10:06Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I would agree that the Church in America has grown lukewarm, I would be interested to see how we come to the conclusion that the "spewing" mentioned in this verse means "damnation".

If it is true that these were people in the Church, then they cannot be lost. Perhaps some are false converts who only give the outward impression that they are Christians, while inwardly they have never been regenerated. This would fit much of Christianity today would it not?

Simply because a man can speak Christianese, and say, "praise the Lord" does not mean he has been born again. Yet because we have drifted away from allowing God to sovereignly save people, and made evangelism more of a coercive, consumeristic thing, many come unaware of what true regeneration is.

For reasons unknown to us, God allows the false to run alongside with the true, and if anything, this should make us be diligent to make our calling and election sure. Then after that, we should rejoice in His mercy, and grace that He saves any.

I agree with jay as well, there has never been a person truly converted who was dragged contrary to their will. God by His Spirit changes the heart, and makes it alive so that it suddenly seems a perfectly reasonable thing to believe on Christ, and His death and resurrection.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/8/6 11:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I agree with jay as well, there has never been a person truly converted who was dragged contrary to their will. God by His Spirit changes the heart, and makes it alive so that it suddenly seems a perfectly reasonable thing to believe on Christ, and His death and resurrection.



I guess that is why Jesus is saying in this verse that His arms are stretched out still, and who shall shorten them? Certainly not us.

[i][b]20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: *IF ANY MAN HEAR MY VOICE, AND OPEN THE DOOR*, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.[/b][/i]

But He knocks, and WE open. Perfectly clear to understand. Some will hear, but not open. All men are on equal standing....repent. God doesn't give some the ability FIRST to believe and leave others to themself. ALL have sinned, and ALL come to Christ the same way.

God is not a respector of persons as you suggest. Since His word says that, and God cannot LIE, nor is there hidden meaning in John 3:14-17 that one must have a PhD to understand or have explained to them.

Simple Childlike faith.


Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/7 6:39
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Katy-did, with all due respect, you cannot take this passage in Revelation as a proof text for the process of Salvation. We must remember the Holy Spirit's intent when John wrote this. The writing is to a lukewarm church telling them to repent because they have fallen away from true worship. Jesus is not telling them to 'receive Him into their hearts.'

We agree that all who come to Jesus in faith will be saved. We agree that all who do not come to Jesus in faith will not be saved. We disagree on whether or not salvation depends upon the choice of man or if salvation depends upon the choice of God.

Let me provide an example to make this more clear:
Johnny and Jimmy are walking in a mall when a guy they had never met begins to share with them about Jesus, salvation, and redemption. Johnny doesn't want to hear about any of it and politely excuses himself while Jimmy continues to be drawn to the message of this 'Christ'. Afterwards, Jimmy tells Johnny that the man made alot of sense. 'Your crazy' says Johnny. 'It is nothing but silly superstition.'
Later that night Jimmy prays to God for salvation, and Jimmy watches TV until he falls asleep.

Two men heard the same message, yet one responded and the other did not. Why? Is Jimmy just smarter than Johnny? Dos Jimmy have anything to boast about in that he responded and Johnny did not?

Katy-did, you would say that Johnny and Jimmy both received the same about of drawing by God to the gospel, right? In your understanding, the only difference was that Jimmy did something (believe. Let me clarify, belief is not a work, but the work of redemption begins before belief. Remember, faith/belief is a response) to gain his salvation that Johnny did not.

What I and roaringlamb say is that Johnny heard the external call of the gospel (through the man) but did not hear the internal call of the gospel (from God). Jimmy heard the external call and also the internal call because inwardly he was drawn while Johnny was not.

Make sense?

 2007/8/7 10:50Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
God is not a respecter of persons as you suggest.Since His word says that, and God cannot LIE, nor is there hidden meaning in John 3:14-17 that one must have a PhD to understand or have explained to them.



Sister, this phrase speaks of Jews and Gentiles. Consider the only occurrence of it-
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that [b]God is no respecter of persons:[/b]
Act 10:35 [b]But in every nation[/b] he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Peter's comments are in direct contrast to the perception of the Jews of his day who thought that salvation was for the Jews only. This has nothing to do with election.

In fact if it is as many believe, that God looks down the corridor of time, and elects based upon a foreseen faith, is this not being respectful of them, as they posses something another does not?

Or, is it as the Bible states, based upon His good pleasure?

Here is the section of Scripture you referred to
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I do not see how anything anyone has said makes it seem as if one needed a PHD to believe. I simply say that anyone who believes has been given the ability to believe by God.

I know that you are saying that the "whosoever" must mean that all are equally chosen, but that is not what the text says. A plain reading of the text will show that the "whosoever" must do something in order not to perish, they must believe.

Consider for a moment if I take this verse-
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and [b]whosoever[/b] receiveth the mark of his name.

Now, because it has the word "whosoever", can I assume it means a universal damnation of mankind. Would this be proper? You will say, "no, because the whosoever did something to be damned." And I would reply, "it is the same in the third chapter of John as well."

You cannot make whosoever mean every man in the world. Yes the Scriptures say, "whosoever will", but the point is that no one will unless God changes their heart to be willing.






_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/8/7 12:58Profile









 Re:

Hello Roaringlamb,



Quote:
know that you are saying that the "whosoever" must mean that all are equally chosen, but that is not what the text says. A plain reading of the text will show that the "whosoever" must do something in order not to perish, they must believe.



I think it is the (sorry here) twisting of this thought that many are confused. *Whosoever will* and *Chosen* don't belong in the same sentence, or even the same trane of thought. I know how hard it is to separate those thoughts if you have been taught this theology...and yes I am very up to snuff on this doctrine. I also am keen on catching the mixing of thoughts that don't belong together in order to try to prove a theology.

When in Ephesians Paul says we were chosen In Christ before the foundation of the world, Paul was talking to ***the Church as a whole****...the Body of Christ. It was the CHURCH that was foreordained/predestined and we are predestined to be conformed to His image.

With that in mind, it totally opens up a truth that all other scripture fits together without offending anyone, or apparent contradictions.

There are NO contradictions of scripture, only men who contradict one another in their understanding. When we see our self as an individual rather then a BODY (the Body of Christ) we get into all sorts of trouble.

The BODY is made up of those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ, identified with Him in death and resurrection life, and then being raised up with Him are baptized into His body by that same self Spirit.


Quote:
Now, because it has the word "whosoever", can I assume it means a universal damnation of mankind. Would this be proper? You will say, "no, because the whosoever did something to be damned." And I would reply, "it is the same in the third chapter of John as well."



Now here again is another twisting of thought on the word *Whosoever Will* as meaning A UNIVERSAL DAMNATION.

Roaringlamb, it's because of these games with words being played that is a real turn off, because we can't have a REAL HONEST conversation with word and thought manipulation. If you look in the Strong’s Concordance you will see that WHOSOEVER does not men universal in any way, but simply whosoever, means just that...whosoever.

Jesus Atonement made it possible for ALL to come to Him, but not all will. This is what Whosoever means....all are invited. But you see, only SINNERS in need of a savior will answer that call. Men KNOW they are sinners...that is no secret kept from our eyes or anyone else’s. Jesus didn't come for the righteous or the elect, but for sinners. If Jesus died for the elect only and pre-picked out his elect, he would have said " not whosoever will, but for God so loved the Elect...He didn't say that. So to explain it any other way, getting DEEP into reformed theology to understand it would take an educated person to grasp. Faith need no IQ to grasp.

Hebrews 12 states very clearly "By faith WE believe". So faith is what we do, and no faith is not saving yourself, or is faith works. It's *TRUSTING* what someone says is true. It's PRIDE that stands in the way. As Cain had pride in coming to God his way and not God's way. Cain certainly believed in God and even had conversations with Him. The very first story in Genesis has set the mark and the standard. Abel, knowing he could not save himself placed his faith in what was promised in Genesis 3:15 (a redeemer)and made a sacrifice signifying that faith. ****Not without BLOOD IS the issue. Cain came his own way bringing the fruit of the ground. Now Mr. and Mrs. Adam & Eve knew and taught both their children the ways of God. Satan is the father of PRIDE and PRIDE is what blinds a person's eyes. Many scripture say, Satan has blinded their eyes...not God.

So please read ALL scripture and not just the verses that support a very weak and cruel theology.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

PS; Added/Edited for content of conversation:


Please consider these scriptures very carefully.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world (SATAN) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, *******lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Mark 8:33
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Luke 13:16
And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?


***This is the Best one of all

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.





 2007/8/7 20:53
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Perhaps I am missing something, for I did not manipulate words at all. I firmly hold to the fact that whosoever will may come, and indeed that only those who have been foreordained unto eternal life will come.

I was simply stating that in John 3, the "whosoever" must do something in order to have everlasting life. Namely they must believe, and no man can do this on their own, as the natural man cannot receive th things of the Spirit. Consider also Jesus' words in John 8-
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Thus showing that there is a hearing that is above that which is natural, and is necessary for one to believe in Christ.

As for the Ephesians passage, I would agree that yes the Church is what is being spoken of, but the Church is made up of elect persons is it not?

Thus the words for Church, and elect are derived from the same root in Greek. The words are "eklektos"(elect), and "ekklesia"(church). Ek meaning "out of", and kaleo meaning "call". The Church is the called out elect body of Christ, that were given to Him in etrnity past, and those that were given Him will not perish as He has borne their sins, and has opened the way into Heaven for them. The Holy Spirit applies this work to them by changing their hearts to believe the gospel, which in turn brings about repentance, and justification.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/8/7 22:22Profile





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