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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Five Points of Calvinism Considered By David Servant

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theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Mr. Lovehim,

At present I am quite undeveloped in my explanation of these things. I have seen enough to be convinced wholeheartedly of the first four "points" and I see no likelihood of leaving them. As for the fifth point, it seems in some sense limited. However, my studies thus far have me wondering about what seems to be a certain "duality of purpose" in the fifth point, the atonement, which allows it to reach all people to some degree or another.

Presently the view I believe is most biblical regarding your questions is this:

Christ willingly became a perfect sacrifice, whose offer was sufficient for all men everywhere. However, it is only made efficient, that is, useful, to those who repent and believe and persevere, who after all things will be found to be the elect. However, the sufficiency of Christ's death, and the Lordship to which He is raised as Judge of all, and His command to repent and believe given to all men, are applicable to everyone. So, [b]the sense in which they were bought was that Christ purchased the right to command them to repent and believe with the hope that they may find mercy in His all-sufficient sacrifice.[/b] Prior to His death and resurrection there was nothing to repent and believe towards effectually.

Now, someone please take sandpaper to whatever unschooled heresy I just expounded! This is, though, what I presently believe the word teaches.

 2007/7/30 20:07Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
1 timothy 4:10 "for to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe". now the context in this verse shows us that all men mean all men. paul here is contrasting the difference between the all men (world) that Jesus is the Savior of and especially those who believe (elect) that Jesus is really the Savior of. what do you guys think about this verse??



Now I could be wrong, but I believe that the word "Saviour" is in a verb form, which would mean one who is saving.

The Greek word "soter" can also mean deliverer, or one who preserves.

Since we know that this cannot mean God has saved all men, we must assume(rightly) that it may mean something other than how it plainly reads, as Scripture does not contradict itself.

So I would say that it means that God is the preserver, and sustainer of all men in His providence, His blessings of life, air, rain, the beauty of nature etc. But He is the specific sustainer in this life and the one to come of those who believe.

Blessings to you brethren :-D


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/30 20:19Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

To further answer Mr. LoveHim's question, regarding

"the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

God is sovereign, and men are responsible to obey Him in the way and to the degree He has commanded. They cannot obey Him in the way and to the degree He has commanded unless He enables them. They do not know if He will enable them, but they have been promised that all who will repent and believe will be saved. They know that God has determined that saving knowledge comes through the Gospel, through the whole counsel of God's word. They know that their conscience screams to humble themselves and to obey to whatever amount they can the commands of God. Men are responsible. Christ has made a means of saving all who will repent and believe. God is sovereign. This is not a paradox, but an antinomy. A paradox is a play on words that can be understood is unraveled. An antinomy is a situation with two equally verifiable truths that appear to contradict but in truth must harmonize somewhere out of sight.

Spurgeon used to say that God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are like two parallel lines that run side by side into the far distances of space, and yet must cross somewhere, probably at the throne of God.

 2007/7/30 20:23Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Spurgeon used to say that God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are like two parallel lines that run side by side into the far distances of space, and yet must cross somewhere, probably at the throne of God.



Yes, and what seems at odds with each other to us, is a beautiful thing with God.

This is why we must not present the Gospel as an emotional plea such as- Christ died for you, so you can have....., but rather Repent and believe the Gospel as the Gospel is itself a command.


If you read through the book of Acts, you will be astounded at how they preached. They did not bash people over the head with morals, nor did they promise peace, joy, fulfillment.

Rather, they gauged their audience(Paul especially), and preached accordingly. to those who knew the Scriptures, they would tell their testimony of the One to come, and how God raised Him as a Sovereign King to be reckoned with on judgment day.

To those who were unfamiliar with the Scriptures, they would start from creation(Acts 17 on Mars Hill), and build from there to get to the coming judgment, and the resurrection of Christ.

We too must work to understand to whom we are preaching, for the Judeo-Christian God is not who most believe to be god. Thus we must reason with them from creation, bringing them to understand the God they have offended, who will one day judge them. Yet we also must exalt the greatness of Christ as a Saviour, and command men to repent and believe that He alone is the righteousness they need to be justified before God.

And above all, we need not approach these souls as a notch to be put on our belts. They need a body to be involved with, they need to be discipled, and not simply kicked to the curb once they are saved.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/30 20:51Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Well said. I have enjoyed reading this discussion. God Bless you all.

 2007/7/31 10:25Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

In offer to another possible interpretation to "he is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe", please consider that the statement is being made by someone about Jesus's death being a potential salvation for those who don't yet believe but who are appointed to one day believe and a real salvation ( in terms of time ) for those who already belive. That is, from a man's viewpoint, Jesus is a potential Savior for mankind but, again from a man's viewpoint, He is an actual Savior for those who currently believe.

 2007/7/31 11:28Profile









 Re:

[i][b]20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: *IF ANY MAN HEAR MY VOICE, AND OPEN THE DOOR*, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.[/b][/i]


This sounds like an invitation to salvation, based upon WHO opening the door? Nothing here says God kicks down the door.

To as many as receive Him, to them gave He the power to become the Sons of God.

I guess when we hear His voice and WE open the door and receive Him, He will "come in". Praise God.

How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of Good things to men to HEAR HIS Voice through His Church, His Body now here on earth.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/8/5 14:44
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: *IF ANY MAN HEAR MY VOICE, AND OPEN THE DOOR*, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.



This is spoken to a group of Christians, so it does not fit what you are trying to make it say.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/8/5 16:03Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

roaringlamb is right. The context of this verse in Revelation is not Jesus talking to a lost person to come to salvation, it is Jesus talking to a Church that is lukewarm.

Verse 19 is very important and must not be overlooked:
"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent."

 2007/8/5 16:57Profile
Nile
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Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
roaringlamb is right. The context of this verse in Revelation is not Jesus talking to a lost person to come to salvation, it is Jesus talking to a Church that is lukewarm.

Verse 19 is very important and must not be overlooked:
"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent."



And if they don't repent...they go to hell.
That must not be overlooked either.


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/5 17:13Profile





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