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HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Great question roaringlamb. I've wrestled with that one for years.
And I'll be honest and just say that I don't know why one man responds to the gospel and another doesn't.
But yep, in that case, Jesus definitely made the difference: "Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case..."


_________________
Melanie

 2007/7/23 19:28Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: When did you repent?

Reply

My conscious pointed out sin but when I saw Jesus on the cross as the mercy of God poured out for us His polluted and helpless children, I gained a true sense of my guilt and sinfulness and surrender my rebellion and repented and I am developing a strong hatred of sin.
Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/7/23 20:47Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
But of those who believe, what is the difference between them and those that do not believe?


the difference is that when the Light of the world came shining, some chose to receive Him. the true Light gives light to EVERY MAN who comes into the world. (john 1:9)

Quote:
Now let's say that these represent mankind. All of these are unable to help thamselves out of their condition, none of these would be better than another as they are all handicapped.


true, we were all depraved, but God has given faith to all men (romans 12:3). that we might place our God given faith into Him for salvation. some will say "so you now want to boast in your faith that saved you". are you kidding. how can any man who has been GIVEN the very faith to be saved boast in that. it wasn't ours, but God gave it to us that we might be saved. we did not save ourselves by placing our faith in Christ, that would be nonsense to even suggest something that obsurd.

Quote:
Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?


and in the same way, the Lord is asking all men "WILT THOU BE MADE WHOLE"? let's not take one healing out of context and suggest from it that God is only choosing a very few and ignoring the rest of mankind.

Quote:
Now again, what was the difference between this man, and the others? Why didn't Christ heal all of them? Certainly there was no difference in the man that made him more worthy of healing as they were all in the same state, so again who made the difference?


matthew 8:16 "when evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon possessed. and He cast out the spirits with a word and healed ALL who were sick". there all who came to Him were healed. does this prove that God desires all man to be saved? no it means that He healed all who were sick that came to Him.

but many scriptures do tell us that God desires all all men to saved.

thanks for the discussion guys, i appreciate all your posts. :-)

 2007/7/23 22:43Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
the difference is that when the Light of the world came shining, some chose to receive Him. the true Light gives light to EVERY MAN who comes into the world. (john 1:9)



But before your verse, we read this-
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and [b]the darkness comprehended it not.[/b]

Then we see this later in the same chapter-
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, [b]to them gave he power to become the sons of God,[/b] even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

Also in John 3 we read this about men and the light-
Joh 3:19 And [b]this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/b]

Quote:
but God has given faith to all men (romans 12:3).



This is not talking about the unsaved brother, but rather the Christians in Rome-
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, [b]to every man that is among you,[/b] not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according [b]as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.[/b]
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

Quote:
but many scriptures do tell us that God desires all all men to saved.



And usually they are taken out of context to make them say that, because if God wanted all men saved, they would be. Man's "free will" is not stronger than God.

Consider in this verse that God has already written those who would be saved in the book of life -
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, [b]whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,[/b] when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Now comparing this with this-
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of [b]the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/b]

We can see that something was completed before the foundation of the earth. Now we look for that phrase some more, and find this-
Eph 1:4 According as [b]he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,[/b] that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Consider this one too-
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: [b]although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.[/b]

It seems that God has elected those who would be saved, and now is applying that work to their hearts by the Holy Spirit. But the number is set, and only He knows what it is.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/24 0:50Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

LoveHim and HopePurifies, may I share with you what was the key to my receiving the doctrines of grace, as RoaringLamb puts them?

I finally was made to understand that:

1.) All men really, truly do deserve to go to hell.
2.) Although men may freely come to a version of God, they would never, ever willing come to the true God, nor come on His terms, unless He changed them.
3.) God has chosen to give *grace* to some, without any inclusion of their merits, and will punish the others fairly.

The whole of the scriptures fall together with that understanding.

If God loves the Pygmy in Africa in the same way that He loves the people of Azotus (Acts 8) He could certainly transport a disciple there, but He doesn't. That is in part because they are damnable sinners and God has chosen to leave many people as examples of just wrath. To others, grace is shown.

No one has ever deserved to be saved.

Amen, and love.

 2007/7/24 2:35Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

can someone of you who believe that God treats people different explain how God can command me not to do so, and if i do that is SIN. But God can do that himself, To me that is saying it is ok for God to do this sin but not for me.

James 2:9 [b]But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin[/b], and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

How can God transgress His law and still be righteous? he cant....

he says dont have respect of persons,

strong's
4380 proswpolhpte,w prosopolepteo {pros-o-pol-ape-teh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to respect the person (i.e. the external condition of man) 2) to have respect of persons, discriminate

Fribergs Lexicon 23588 proswpolhmpte,w (or proswpolhpte,w) show partiality or favoritism, treat one person better than another

to favor an individual, i.e show partiality :-have respect of persons is SIN....

then how can God do this when he only allow some people to repent? how can he favor a small group of people, are thease people better then the rest? God forbid we should think in such a way! we are all filthy sinners.

John 7:37 ¶ In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, [b]If any man[/b] thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

i just dont get this partiality , why does he only want to enable a small group to be saved? does he not want all to be saved? of course he does. The bible is clear that Gods will is for all people to be saved. Should he not then make a way for them to be? of course he has.

Does all men accept Gods way and come to HIM in [b]true repantance[/b]? no they dont....


i think the two first pages of this thread is full of scriptures that many just ignore, or explain away that they meen something else, we have to look at all scriptures. Not try and make scriptures try and "fit" a sertain doctrine or a denominations view of them. I can understand why so many hold this view, and i have a very limited understanding of these things. But we have to be careful ,

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.









_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/7/24 3:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
We are sadly mistaken , if we think all men have the natural ability to repent, and believe the Gospel.



[b]NATURAL ABILITY (Free Will)[/b]

I contend that the GUILT of SINNERS is because of their ABILITY to OBEY God, yet their REFUSAL to do what God REASONABLY requires of them. Requiring the impossible is unreasonable. And there can be no guilt in failure to do the impossible.

Sinners deserve hell for breaking reasonable, keepable laws. Nobody goes to hell, or deserves hell, for breaking unreasonable, unkeepable laws.

Criminality cannot go beyond what is voluntary. Going to hell because you are incapable of obeying God, would be like going to jail because you cannot walk on water!!

[b]DO SINNERS HAVE TO SIN OR DO THEY CHOOSE TO SIN?[/b]

[b]DOES GOD SEND SINNERS TO HELL FOR UNAVOIDABLE SINS OR AVOIDABLE SINS?[/b]

[b]ARE SINNERS GUILTY BECAUSE THEY CANNOT OBEY GOD OR BECAUSE THEY CAN BUT REFUSE TO?[/b]

“Does God give commandments which men cannot obey? Is He so arbitrary, so severe, so unloving, as to issue commandments which cannot be obeyed? The answer is that in all of annals of Holy Scripture, not a single instance is recorded of God having commanded any man to do a thing, which was beyond his power. Is God so unjust and so inconsiderate as to require of man that which he is unable to render? To infer is to slander the character of God.” E. M. Bounds

God is not a tyrant, His laws are not tyrannical. Pharaoh commanded brick but gave no straw, and then beat those who failed to perform the impossible. Pharaoh was a tyrant for doing such and scripture assigns the fault to Pharaoh and not with those subservient to him (Exodus 5:16). The moral fault was with the commander, not with the command breakers. The infallible testimony of Divine Inspiration declares that when an impossible law is broken, the problem is with the law itself and with the one who issued the law.

What is vice in Pharaoh would not and could not be virtue in God. What scripture condemns in one is condemnable in all; what is vice in one is vice in all. The equality and impartiality of justice demands that what mars the character of one must mar the character of all, a blemish to one must be a blemish to all.

God does not command obedience but then gives no ability to perform that which is commanded, only to punish with eternal torment those who do not obey when they had no ability to obey. The fault would, according to the divine scriptures, be with the commander and not with the command breaker, when the commands are broken. Sin would ultimately be the fault of the one who gave the unreasonable law, since sin is transgression of the law (1John 3:4), and there can be no transgression where there is no law (Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13,1John 3:4). Sin then would not and could not be the fault of the one who broken the law which naturally could not be kept. The one who decrees an impossible law must be the ultimate author and actual cause of sin. But the truth is that God is not the author of sin, He is not the ultimate cause of sin, because God’s moral laws are not unreasonable, because God’s moral laws can in fact be kept.

God’s Moral Government, or Moral Kingdom, is not a tyrannical one, but a reasonable and just one. God does not condemn the incapable for failure to perform the impossible, but condemns the able for failure to perform the possible; for voluntarily and freely choosing darkness over the light (John 3:19), “who have received the law” “but have not kept it”. (Acts 7:53)

God’s execution of condemnation is justly exerted upon the capable for violation of commandments that could be kept. Condemnation for violation of commandments is justly deserved upon condition of capability, upon condition of being able to keep the commandments. Condemnation for breaking a law that could not be kept is unjust condemnation. Eternal d**nation for breaking that which was unavoidably and inevitably to be broken is unjust eternal d**nation. God does not send to hell those who are victims of their birth, victims of nature, victims of their parents, victims of fate, who hadn’t any power, option, or ability of obeying all that was required of them. But rather, God sends deserving criminals and rebels to eternal hell, who freely of their own accord choose to walk contrary to the righteous demands of God’s reasonable and just commandments, when it was well within their power, well within their ability of will, to obey and conform to all of their moral obligations and requirements. (1Cor 6:9-10, Rev 21:8)

“It is offering an insult to the only wise God to suppose… that he gave them the Gospel, without giving them power to believe it…With regards to repentance, ‘Then he began,’ says St. Matthew, ‘to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not.’ Merciful Savior, forgive us! We have insulted thy meek wisdom, by representing thee as cruelly upbraiding the lame for not running, the blind for not seeing, and the dumb for not speaking! ... Suppose a schoolmaster said to his English scholars ‘Except you instantly speak Greek you shall all be severely whipped.’ You would wonder at the injustice of the school tyrant. But would not the wretch be merciful in comparison of a Savior, (so called) who is supposed to say to myriads of men, that can no more repent than ice can burn, ‘Except ye repent, ye shall all perish”? John Fletcher *5

“Many sincere men are saying, ‘God gave us good laws to keep,’ and in the next breath saying, ‘we are actually unable to keep them!’ If this is true, then God’s laws are not good! No law is good that asks the impossible of its subjects. If God demands obedience to impossible laws then God is not just... If God demands such obedience under penalty of death, then God is not only unfair, but monstrous. What kind of being would pass laws upon his subjects they are unable to keep, and then condemn them to death for their failure to obey? This is a blasphemy on God’s character.” Winkie Pratney

To assume that God commands the impossible at the threat of eternal torment is to directly slander the character of God. Cruelty cannot be ascribed to God’s character because injustice cannot be ascribed to His government. The character of God does not allow anyone to go to hell for failure to perform moral impossibilities, but only for failure to perform moral possibilities. The bible exalts God and glorifies His moral character and says because of God’s eternal character He never, in any circumstance, allows anyone to be tempted beyond their moral ability. A sin hating, sin punishing God provides a way for all sin to be avoided in all cases, always, without exception, providing a way of escape so that we are all, always, able to obey instead of disobey.

“There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able, but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” 1Cor 10:13

Temptation would not be tempting, if it were forcing. What is forced cannot be considered temptation. Temptation is the inclination towards one choice over the other, the influence towards a decision or direction. Temptation is not the forcing of one choice over the other; it is not the necessitating of one decision or direction. Force or causation is not the nature of temptation but inclination or influence is. Causation and influence are different by nature. Temptation can only respect contingent volitions, relating to that which may or may not occur; but temptation cannot be respecting certain or necessitated volitions, relating to that which will and must occur.

Where sin is forced, there not only could not be sin, but there could not be temptation. But where there is sin and where there is temptation, there must be the freedom of the will. All men are tempted to sin, but no man is forced to sin, because all men are capable of not sinning. If this were not true, neither temptation nor sin could exist for the sinner or for the saint. For sin to be sin, or to have moral guilt, it must be voluntary and avoidable, but not necessitated and forced. And for temptation to be temptation it must be only influence, but not causation. And so “temptation” is “common” to all men, because the power of contrary choice is common to all men. All men have the freedom of their wills, and so the scripture is undeniably true that “ye are able” (1Cor 10:13).

1Cor 10:13 directly and explicitly depicts the eternal, never changing character of God as it relates to man’s ability and temptations. God is just towards all men. God is faithful at all times. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8). Because of the eternally holy, eternally good, eternally just character of God, the commandments of God are never tyrannical or burdensome, but are always moral and reasonable towards all men at all times, being possible by all who are obligated to keep them.

“God is faithful” therefore “ye are able” (1Cor 10:13). “Able” is “δύναμαι” which is to “be able or possible: - be able, can (do, + -not), could, may, might, be possible, be of power”. The only reason “ye are able” is because “God is faithful”. To declare that “ye are not able” would require the declaration that “God is not faithful”. God’s character determines what God commands; and what God commands is always in accordance to our ability; the moral law always respecting our ability by brilliantly declaring “with all thy” (Matthew 22:37).

Since God’s moral character determines God’s moral commandments, when dealing with the moral commandments of God, we are directly dealing with the moral character of God and only subsequently dealing with the capabilities of men. The moral character of God is the primary issue while the moral capacities of men are only the secondary or necessarily connected issue.

“My yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matt 11:30). “His commandments are not grievous.” (1John 5:3). Because His yoke, burden, and commandments are easy, light, and not grievous, therefore “ye are able”. To say “ye are not able” is to say His yoke, burden, and commandments are hard, heavy and burdensome, which would be contrary to the direct and explicit declarations God has given of Himself. The one who misrepresents the commandments must of necessity misrepresent the Commander.

Therefore the declaration of the ability of man is an exaltation of the character of God, and the renunciation of the ability of man is a denunciation of the character of God. The one who rejects the ability of man thereby slanders and undermines the wisdom of God’s Divine Intelligence and the goodness of God’s Divine Character.

--------------------

So men must yield their freewill to God in order to be saved, they must surrender their lives to Jesus Christ, they must voluntarily give up their rebellion. God wants all to be saved, but men must make the final decision to obey or disobey God.

 2007/7/24 5:24
mjkeller
Member



Joined: 2006/8/8
Posts: 2


 Re:

Quote:

theopenlife wrote:
LoveHim and HopePurifies, may I share with you what was the key to my receiving the doctrines of grace, as RoaringLamb puts them?

I finally was made to understand that:

1.) All men really, truly do deserve to go to hell.
2.) Although men may freely come to a version of God, they would never, ever willing come to the true God, nor come on His terms, unless He changed them.
3.) God has chosen to give *grace* to some, without any inclusion of their merits, and will punish the others fairly.

The whole of the scriptures fall together with that understanding.

If God loves the Pygmy in Africa in the same way that He loves the people of Azotus (Acts 8) He could certainly transport a disciple there, but He doesn't. That is in part because they are damnable sinners and God has chosen to leave many people as examples of just wrath. To others, grace is shown.

No one has ever deserved to be saved.

Amen, and love.



Very well put.

Lazarus, God bless you brother. I think maybe you're overlooking the Bible's teaching about "original sin". When Adam sinned we died in Adam. We are dead in sins now and that is why we cannot obey God's commands without God's graceful intervention. The impossible commandments (not that they are impossible to keep outwardly) are not unjust but they are the means of waking us up to the reality of our need for Christ. "By the law came the knowledge of sin."


_________________
Mike Keller

 2007/7/24 8:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Lazarus, God bless you brother. I think maybe you're overlooking the Bible's teaching about "original sin".... The impossible commandments... are not unjust but they are the means of waking us up to the reality of our need for Christ. "By the law came the knowledge of sin."



God's law does not merely wake people up. Besides it wakes up very few. But God's law condemns. God's law condemns more people then it awakens. More people are condemned then saved.

But going to hell for being born a sinner would be like going to hell for being born white or black. The guilt of sin lies in it's voluntariness, in it's willfullness, in it's avoidability.

We are born with a propensity to sin, with a strong bias to sin, but all sin is a voluntary moral choice. Sin is trangression of God's law.

If God's laws are impossible, because mankind lost freewill (something the bible never says, and something the Early Church called heresy), then multitudes go to hell for failure to perform the impossible! It would be like going to hell because you cannot walk on water.

Suppose a Tyrant in the Middle East says, "Anyone who cannot walk must be killed." He then sends his soldiers to the hospital, and anyone who cannot walk is killed for their crime. They have violated the Kings command, and are therefore killed.

The soldiers also kill the children who are born lame. These children are criminals you see, they are born lame. They cannot walk if they wanted to. And therefore, because they have violated the Kings command, they must be killed.

Don't you see the absurdity of that?? Killing children for being born lame? Or God sending people to hell for being born sinners, for breaking laws that they could not keep??

God only sends sinners to hell because they choose to sin out of their own freewill. They are CRIMINALS because of their choices, they are not VICTIMS because of their birth.

 2007/7/24 8:21
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
This is not talking about the unsaved brother, but rather the Christians in Rome-


what about the roman centurion?? the syrophinician woman?? what great faith they had.
Quote:
And usually they are taken out of context to make them say that, because if God wanted all men saved, they would be. Man's "free will" is not stronger than God.


brother, many of these are not twisted out of context, they are merely stating that God's desire is for all to be saved.
Quote:
because if God wanted all men saved, they would be.

so does God really not want all to be saved?? is the word lying when it says that?? that's the problem with defending a theology and not simply read the word and believe it.

the word tells us that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Him. that He is the Savior of all me, especially those that believe.

God is sovereign enough to do whatever He desires and He has in His sovereignty allowed man to accept or reject His Son Jesus.


 2007/7/24 8:33Profile





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