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freedbyjc
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 204
Jacksonville. Florida

 Re:

:-) :-) Definately not the impression I have of you ... wait a minute NC, copper tubing , corn ??? :-? :eek:

Quote:
Worship has much more to do with our hearts than it does music.



Again to the heart of the matter as always ...thanks for the clarity.


_________________
bill schnippert

 2007/8/20 9:07Profile









 Re:

Years ago I was in a Barbershop chorus. We competed every year as they now still do.
Being as how vocal harmony, as presented by the voices of the men, was the thing judged, needless to say, much concentration was placed on that emphasis. Get the harmony accurate and the voices blended together to present as best as possible, given we were not professional singers, the music we wish to be judged on. Anything, like movement by the singers on stage that [b]would distract the listener[/b] from the full benefit of the hearing experience was a no-no; was greatly frowned upon. The judges looked for such movement and graded accordingly.

Today’s thinking in Barbershopping is quite different. Animated stage presence is now offered up as part of the package. Why they even have “Jugglers” and “Acrobats” performing in keeping with the music offered to be judged. Choreography has been introduced as something to be desired, regardless of the distraction it presents to the listener, who came to the show to hear the beauty of Barbershop harmony -- plus nothing. He was a "worshipper" who wanted to be taken somewhere in his emotions. I lived that experience to the hilt.

Another thing introduced has been the letting every man do on thing while singing; offering up independent hand movements and gestures, heads bobbing and weaving, all to the detriment of the listener who came to hear the beautiful music. It stifles the emotional escape mechanism.

It is no longer just an experience in listening. It is now an audio-visual performance performed in the same name as before. How was this allowed to happen except the old way was dying off and something had to be done to preserve the tradition, a tradition that is changing into a "performance" never intended by its founders.

Can we make a application here as it may apply to our Sunday service?

 2007/8/20 9:16
freedbyjc
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 204
Jacksonville. Florida

 Re:

ORM, I pray a personal pardon and want to express my deepest sympathy for the wrong that you feel was done to you. As I have observed in your responses to multiple worship posts over the years [and in your quoted post below] you are still belaboring the perceived loss or 'your BELOVED music' in your worship service and [eye]lashing out at anyone who will read your ...

As I perceive and fully grieve that loss, I also perceive that those events color your posts on worship. AGAIN, I am truly sorry if I was or am being presumptuous ...I pray pardon and I'll look out for this in the future.

Quote:
Indeed, again I agree........ Now leave it in Africa or the Rock and Roll - hip-hop stage and don't [b]impose it upon me[/b] as if it should speak to me in some spiritual way just because you believe we need a change. It doesn't and I don't. [i]I personally will take the grand sound of the organ and piano playing out the high praises and anthems to God on any Sunday[/i] over the sound of 1/2 doz fellows loudly banging guitars, playing out sounds in 2 minor chords that all sound the same regardless of the tune played .. and there are many each Sunday that have taken [b]me[/b] nowhere in an attitude of praise. To the contrary, I leave.[/i]


Again, thank you for agreeing that personal experience and preference determines the state of personal worship. It is all about YOU, and you and you...hence the terminology -personal worship. That is what we are to wholeheartedly seek, communion and a personal reverent relationship with Almighty God
Quote:
In hindsight I would ask, [i]who gave you or anyone permission to be creative in a worship service [b]aside from the Holy Spirit anointing that would be obvious[/b][/i], by imposing your brand of strange, creative, music gleaned from the stage or third world to a people who recognize the prescribed way they have witnessed God honor?

Careful, dangerous ground dear one...Are you the worlds authority on discerning the Holy Spirit's anointing? Are you judging the hearts and minds of the musicians and the worshippers?
Quote:
Has God changed? Has He become bored and wants fresh tunes?

Of course enough generations have passed on leaving us with this one that has [b]never corporately experienced entering into the high praises of God.[/b] What we have now that was deemed sub or abnormal a few years back is now accepted as normal --- and that because we let the world and human reasoning into the sanctuary to aid us in establishing a "seeker friendly" reputation.

What our God seeks is the hearts and minds of His people. Any worship or media medium that is used in the attitude of worshipping HIM in Spirit and in Truth brings the worshippers into a deeper relationship with Almighty God is the right method.

Careful, once more you tred on dangerous ground dear one...Are you the worlds authority on discerning the Holy Spirit's anointing in corporate worship? Are you judging the hearts and minds of the people?

Quote:
[b]Having lived long enough, I can rightly (???) [/b] say I have lived through the "dumbing down" of the western church praise service. A church that now plays to the "hurting needs of the people" regardless of the violation to the senses of God.

Again that is your opinion of what you have experience in your local church and what you have read about. Have you attempted to experience worship in any venue but your 'home' church? Go and talk to those who are worshipping...ask them who they are worshipping and why. Yes, you'll find some who are totally clueless but not all...please save the wide brush for painting the picket fence.


_________________
bill schnippert

 2007/8/20 9:19Profile









 Re:

ORM, I pray a personal pardon and want to express my deepest sympathy for the wrong that you feel was done to you. As I have observed in your responses to multiple worship posts over the years [and in your quoted post below] you are still belaboring the perceived loss or 'your BELOVED music' in your worship service and [eye]lashing out at anyone who will read your ...

As I perceive and fully grieve that loss, I also perceive that those events color your posts on worship. AGAIN, I am truly sorry if I was or am being presumptuous ...I pray pardon and I'll look out for this in the future.

Please do. Thank you.

Quote:

Indeed, again I agree........ Now leave it in Africa or the Rock and Roll - hip-hop stage and don't impose it upon me as if it should speak to me in some spiritual way just because you believe we need a change. It doesn't and I don't. I personally will take the grand sound of the organ and piano playing out the high praises and anthems to God on any Sunday over the sound of 1/2 doz fellows loudly banging guitars, playing out sounds in 2 minor chords that all sound the same regardless of the tune played .. and there are many each Sunday that have taken me nowhere in an attitude of praise. To the contrary, I leave.[/i]

Quote:
Again, thank you for agreeing that personal experience and preference determines the state of personal worship. It is all about YOU, and you and you



To the contrary, I see this as being all about YOU and YOU wanting your own way or brand of worship practiced at others expense and regardless of whether it HINDERS others in entering the presence of God. ...hence your inappropriate terminology -personal worship. I’m sure if it doesn’t work, you will play louder.

Quote:
That is what we are to wholeheartedly seek, communion and a personal reverent relationship with Almighty God



Non-sense and a testimony to your ignorance and what YOU believe worship to be about.

Quote:

In hindsight I would ask, who gave you or anyone permission to be creative in a worship service aside from the Holy Spirit anointing that would be obvious, by imposing your brand of strange, creative, music gleaned from the stage or third world to a people who recognize the prescribed way they have witnessed God honor?

Quote:
Careful, dangerous ground dear one...Are you the worlds authority on discerning the Holy Spirit's anointing? Are you judging the hearts and minds of the musicians and the worshippers?



First off, don’t condescendly call me “dear one”. Secondly, are you so presumptuous to say that anything goes so long as it is declared to be in the Name of Jesus? And how do you know I don’t have such discernment? Care to judge me on that? The brand you accuse me of criticizing is all too obvious in that it is simply, a “GIG”. I have known some of the fellows. Jesus isn’t on their minds. They are all too often there because some mis-guided leadership invited them to play with the hope of getting them saved. By osmosis, I suppose. Go figure!


Quote:

Has God changed? Has He become bored and wants fresh tunes?

Of course enough generations have passed on leaving us with this one that has never corporately experienced entering into the high praises of God. What we have now that was deemed sub or abnormal a few years back is now accepted as normal --- and that because we let the world and human reasoning into the sanctuary to aid us in establishing a "seeker friendly" reputation.

Quote:
What our God seeks is the hearts and minds of His people. Any worship or media medium that is used in the attitude of worshipping HIM in Spirit and in Truth brings the worshippers into a deeper relationship with Almighty God is the right method.



OH, So you are going to set me straight as to what God seeks? I know what He seeks. Problem is you can’t discern the attitude of what is offered up as worship, can you? The rest of your remarks is just so much false piety. Spare me.

Quote:
Careful, once more you tred on dangerous ground dear one...Are you the worlds authority on discerning the Holy Spirit's anointing in corporate worship? Are you judging the hearts and minds of the people?



Are you the world’s authority on who is and who isn’t? If you want to question, question your own experience. I might even venture a guess, based on your poor remarks, that you have never been in worship service where the high praises of God were realized by worshippers. I have. I have seen Heaven come down. I have seen it go on for hours and the sermon get preached. Care to be the judge of that?

Quote:

Having lived long enough, I can rightly (???) say I have lived through the "dumbing down" of the western church praise service. A church that now plays to the "hurting needs of the people" regardless of the violation to the senses of God.

Quote:
Again that is your opinion of what you have experience in your local church and what you have read about. Have you attempted to experience worship in any venue but your 'home' church? Go and talk to those who are worshipping...ask them who they are worshipping and why. Yes, you'll find some who are totally clueless but not all...please save the wide brush for painting the picket fence.



I repeat, I have lived long enough to see the dumbing down of the worship service to what it presently is believed to be "normal".

I have been in this longer than you have been alive. I know worship when I hear and see it. I will be in it when it is. I doubt you have had that privilege given that hipe and emotion is your gage.

 2007/8/20 10:36









 Re:

Quote:
Years ago I was in a Barbershop chorus. We competed every year as they now still do.
Being as how vocal harmony, as presented by the voices of the men, was the thing judged, needless to say, much concentration was placed on that emphasis. Get the harmony accurate and the voices blended together to present as best as possible, given we were not professional singers, the music we wish to be judged on. Anything, like movement by the singers on stage that would distract the listener from the full benefit of the hearing experience was a no-no; was greatly frowned upon. The judges looked for such movement and graded accordingly.

Today’s thinking in Barbershopping is quite different. Animated stage presence is now offered up as part of the package. Why they even have “Jugglers” and “Acrobats” performing in keeping with the music offered to be judged. Choreography has been introduced as something to be desired, regardless of the distraction it presents to the listener, who came to the show to hear the beauty of Barbershop harmony -- plus nothing. He was a "worshipper" who wanted to be taken somewhere in his emotions. I lived that experience to the hilt.

Another thing introduced has been the letting every man do on thing while singing; offering up independent hand movements and gestures, heads bobbing and weaving, all to the detriment of the listener who came to hear the beautiful music. It stifles the emotional escape mechanism.

It is no longer just an experience in listening. It is now an audio-visual performance performed in the same name as before. How was this allowed to happen except the old way was dying off and something had to be done to preserve the tradition, a tradition that is changing into a "performance" never intended by its founders.

Can we make a application here as it may apply to our Sunday service?



Ormly, I understand your point, and it is well taken. If you go back and read the things I've had to say about seek-sensitive churches, and Rick Warren, etc... I do not believe the church service should be a 3-ring circus entertainment event. I'm totally against that, as you are too.

Heck, it's one of the reasons we dropped out of traditional church!

There are those that say "I cant worship to old hymns", or "I cant worship to modern music" ... and I would say is it about you, or the Master? If the music is a distraction for you, and prevents you from worshipping God, then remove yourself from there, but dont make the mistake of thinking that just because [b]you[/b] found it to be a distraction doesnt mean thats true for everyone.

Paul spent a great deal of time discussing issues of meat. Some ate meat offered to idols with complete freedom and thanksgiving to God. Others couldnt imagine how they could do that.

Paul told them... dont let your freedom be a stumbling block, and dont let your lack of freedom be a condemnation of the other guy.

Ormly, if you came to one of our meetings and I thought that some of the music might bother you... we're a small group, we would change our music for that meeting. But at the same time, you would be in the wrong if you judged us as anything but worshippers because you didnt like a particular style we were playing if you showed up unexpectantly.

Surely your not saying that you know what godly music is, and anyone who thinks differently from you is wrong... are you? I hear that all the time from many Baptist Churches in my area. "Bluegrass music is angelic, and anything else is Satanic."

Please tell me you'r not like that.

Krispy


 2007/8/20 10:43









 Re:

Ormly... why are you being so argumenative? You're reacting in a hostile way toward people who I have not perceived at all as being hostile toward you.

I everything ok, brother?

Krispy

 2007/8/20 10:47









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Ormly, I understand your point, and it is well taken. If you go back and read the things I've had to say about seek-sensitive churches, and Rick Warren, etc... I do not believe the church service should be a 3-ring circus entertainment event. I'm totally against that, as you are too.

Heck, it's one of the reasons we dropped out of traditional church!

There are those that say "I cant worship to old hymns", or "I cant worship to modern music" ... and I would say is it about you, or the Master? If the music is a distraction for you, and prevents you from worshipping God, then remove yourself from there, but dont make the mistake of thinking that just because [b]you[/b] found it to be a distraction doesnt mean thats true for everyone.

Paul spent a great deal of time discussing issues of meat. Some ate meat offered to idols with complete freedom and thanksgiving to God. Others couldnt imagine how they could do that.

Paul told them... dont let your freedom be a stumbling block, and dont let your lack of freedom be a condemnation of the other guy.

Ormly, if you came to one of our meetings and I thought that some of the music might bother you... we're a small group, we would change our music for that meeting. But at the same time, you would be in the wrong if you judged us as anything but worshippers because you didnt like a particular style we were playing if you showed up unexpectantly.

Surely your not saying that you know what godly music is, and anyone who thinks differently from you is wrong... are you? I hear that all the time from many Baptist Churches in my area. "Bluegrass music is angelic, and anything else is Satanic."

Please tell me you'r not like that.

Krispy



I can remember a while back trying to get the hang of a local AOG church because I needed somewhere to worship and I knew a few that went there. Always before service the Pastor would invite us up to a circle, hand-holding, prayer time. You know the scene. Before beginning, however, he would always ask his wife to put a tape in of some music he was fond of. Well, she did and he would then begin by declaring to the Lord that "It was all about HIM and not about us". That bothered me in light of not only the rest of his empty words but the music was so distracting [with lyrics that couldn't be understood] such that it really didn't matter what he prayed. One could not keep their mind centered on prayer or worship because of the music. It did not lend itself to reverence but "hype". Consequencely, I was robbed as well as others who may not have known any better. I am sure God was also robbed.

No Krispy, I am not as you hope I am not. However, I believe the congregation should be the choir. When all I can hear is banging guitars or whatever other instruments loudly played over praising voices, I deem it an insensitive performance by a band and not good leadership for bringing folk into worship. Oh, most folk will endure because most folk believe that is the extent of it. That is the height they have grown to believe is the height of worship experience. That is sad. Some churches fold up because of such insensitivity. The AOG church I mentioned did just that.

 2007/8/20 11:15









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ormly... why are you being so argumenative? You're reacting in a hostile way toward people who I have not perceived at all as being hostile toward you.

I everything ok, brother?

Krispy


I don't like my words being mis-represented, Krispy.

 2007/8/20 11:17









 Re:

Quote:
I don't like my words being mis-represented, Krispy.



Granted, me either. And I get accused of being everything but a son of God sometimes on here because of my bluntness... but we should still try and be respectful. :-) I'm not perfect at it either, but I'm trying.

Krispy

 2007/8/20 11:31









 Re:

:-(

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
I don't like my words being mis-represented, Krispy.



Granted, me either. And I get accused of being everything but a son of God sometimes on here because of my bluntness... but we should still try and be respectful. :-) I'm not perfect at it either, but I'm trying.

Krispy



Likewise, Krispy. It is always difficult to say something correctly without getting it wrong. Words mean something and I do my best to be clear about speaking in general terms, not wishing to impune anyone. I get particularly annoyed when mis-reprentation is done in a subjective way, i.e., to protect some affinity that that one knows is an affinity.

BTW, My son just came away from a very large "cotton candy-bubble gum" church to start up a real one in his home --- soon to be moved to a rented building. Since he plays the quitar in the contemparary-"brown rice" :-( style, we have this discussion about praise music quite often and I hold him to the same plumbline. I think it is beginning to sink in. --- 8-)

 2007/8/20 11:58





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