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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

sinless perfection to me is a state where i could say i cant sin, i will never sin again.

the victory im speaking of is that for example, i used to be a drug addict, God set me free from that sin, i used to speak very badly with words, God freed me from that sin, and many many more and by Gods grace he is showing me more and more, and i believe i can get victory over every sin he shows me. Will i ever get to a place where i can say i do not sin? i dont know ...but i press on towards perfection as the scripture says, if it is not possible? then why do we even try?

im not saying im right and you are all wrong :-) i just have this belif, and i want to walk as God wants me to walk. And i dont think he wants me to walk in sin... i mean, Jesus says that john the baptist was the greatest born of women, that is a quite large statement, john the baptist is greater then Moses, Abraham, Elijah and all those people. Yet the smallest of us filled with the spirit is greater then John the baptist!

and if Jesus only took my sin in a forgiving way upon the cross, that is great i will go to heaven and all, but i must still live in it here on earth , what kind of salvation is that ?

Just some questions from my mind, im seeking brother... and i wont stop for nothing less then Jesus Christ himself

God bless you
your brother in Christ

Christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/27 16:17Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:




Progressive Sanctification
by Zac Poonen

Jesus told His apostles to teach others to obey all that He had commanded (Matt. 28:20). One who loves the Lord will first of all seek with all his heart to find out what those commandments are; and then he will seek to obey them (John 14:21).

Under the Law, God gave man commandments, but not the power to obey them. Why then did God give the Law? Only in order that man might discover that he's unable to come up to God's standards, and thus see his need of a Saviour and a Helper. "The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ" (Gal. 3:24).But now God has made a new covenant with man. And He has given us, not only commandments, but also an Example in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus demonstrated by His earthly life that it is possible for us to obey all of God's commandments.

God has also promised under the new covenant to put His Laws into our minds and to write them upon our hearts (Heb. 8:10). He does this through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. The Holy Spirit is our Helper Who not only shows us what the will of God is, but also gives us a desire to do that will and grace to obey all of it too.

God is the One Who is going to sanctify us entirely (1 Thess. 5:23). We can't do it on our own. We have to depend on Him - for He is the One Who works in us giving us both the desire as well as the ability to do His will. But we have to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12,13). We have to work out what God works in, for He hasn't turned us into robots!

God cleanses us from the guilt of sin. But we are commanded to "cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor. 7:1). We have to do this, as and when we get light on any defilement within us. It is thus, as we "by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the body" (Rom. 8:13) that the fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control - will become more and more manifest in us. This is what it means to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. Thus our path will become one of increasing light (Prov. 4:18). This is the glorious way of sanctification that God has made for us.


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/27 16:26Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

i found this article very good and balanced and preatty much what i belive :-)

Mr Zac poonen has a good simple and powerful way of putting it that i lack.....



Justification, Sanctification And Glorification
by Zac Poonen

The word of God speaks of "salvation" in three tenses - past (Ephesians 2:8), present (Philippians 2:12) and future (Romans 13:11) - or in other words, of justification, sanctification and glorification.

Salvation has a foundation and a superstructure. The foundation is forgiveness of sins and justification. Justification is more than the forgiveness of our sins. It also means that we have been declared righteous in God's eyes, on the basis of Christ's death, resurrection and ascension. This is not on the basis of our works (Ephesians 2:8,9), for even our righteous deeds are like filthy rags in God's sight (Isaiah 64:6). We are clothed with the righteousness of Christ (Galatians 3:27). Repentance and faith are the conditions for being forgiven and justified (Acts 20:21).True repentance must produce in us the fruit of restitution - returning money and things and taxes due, that are wrongfully in our possession (that belong to others), and apologising to those we have wronged, as far as possible (Luke 19:8,9). When God forgives us, He also requires that we forgive others in the same way. If we fail to do this, God withdraws His forgiveness (Matthew 18:23-35). Repentance and faith must be followed by baptism by immersion in water, whereby we publicly testify to God, to men and to demons that our old man is indeed buried (Romans 6:4,6).We can then receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, whereby we are endued with power to be witnesses for Christ by our life and our lips (Acts 1:8). The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a promise to be received by faith, by all of God's children (Matthew 3:11; Luke 11:13).It is the privilege of every disciple to have the witness of the Spirit that he is indeed a child of God (Romans 8:16) and also to know for certain that he has indeed received the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2).

Sanctification is the superstructure of the building. Sanctification (meaning `being set apart' from sin and the world) is a process that begins with the new birth (1 Corinthians 1:2) and that should continue throughout our earthly life (1 Thessalonians 5:23,24). This is a work that God initiates in us through the Holy Spirit, writing His laws upon our hearts and minds; but we have to do our part, working out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12,13). It is we who are to put to death the deeds of the body through the power that the Spirit offers us (Romans 8:13). It is we who have to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Where a disciple is radical and wholehearted in cooperating with the Holy Spirit in this work, the work of sanctification will progress rapidly in his life. The work will obviously be slow or stagnant in the life of one whose response to the Spirit's leadings is sluggish.

It is in times of temptation that our wholeheartedness in desiring sanctification is truly tested. To be sanctified is to have the righteousness of the law fulfilled inside our hearts - and not just externally as under the old covenant (Romans 8:4). This was what Jesus emphasised in Matthew 5:17-48. The law's requirements were summed up by Jesus as loving God wholeheartedly and loving our neighbour as ourselves (Matthew 22:36-40).

It is this law of love that God now seeks to write in our hearts, for that is His own nature (Hebrews 8:10; 2 Peter 1:4). The outward manifestation of this will be a life of victory over all conscious sin and of obedience to all of Jesus' commandments (John 14:15).

It is impossible to enter into this life without first fulfilling the conditions of discipleship that Jesus laid down (Luke 14:26-33). These are basically to give the Lord the first place above all our relatives and our Self-life and to be detached from all of one's material wealth and possessions.

This is the narrow gate that we have to go through first. Then comes the narrow way of sanctification. Those who do not pursue after sanctification will never see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

While it is possible to be perfect in our conscience here and now (Hebrews 7:19; 9:9,14), it is not possible to be sinlessly perfect until we have a glorified body at Jesus' return (1 John 3:2). We can be LIKE Him only then. But we must seek to WALK as He walked even now (1 John 2:6).As long as we have this corruptible body, unconscious sin will be found in it, however much we may be sanctified (1 John 1:8). But we can be perfect in our conscience (Acts 24:16) and be free from conscious sin (1 John 2:1a), even now, if we are wholehearted (1 Corinthians 4:4).Thus we wait for the second coming of Christ and for our glorification - the final part of our salvation, when we will become sinlessly perfect (Romans 8:23; Philippians 3:21).


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/27 16:28Profile









 Re:

[b]Thursday, June 28, 2007
This Morning's Meditation
C. H. Spurgeon


"Looking unto Jesus."—Hebrews 12:2.[/b]

IT is ever the Holy Spirit's work to turn our eyes away from self to Jesus; but Satan's work is just the opposite of this, for he is constantly trying to make us regard ourselves instead of Christ.
He insinuates, "Your sins are too great for pardon; you have no faith; you do not repent enough; you will never be able to continue to the end; you have not the joy of His children; you have such a wavering hold of Jesus."

All these are thoughts about self, and we shall never find comfort or assurance by looking within. But the Holy Spirit turns our eyes entirely away from self: He tells us that we are nothing, but that "Christ is all in all."

Remember, therefore, it is not thy hold of Christ that saves thee—it is Christ; it is not thy joy in Christ that saves thee—it is Christ; it is not even faith in Christ, though that be the instrument—it is Christ's blood and merits; therefore, look not so much to thy hand with which thou art grasping Christ, as to Christ; look not to thy hope, but to Jesus, the source of thy hope; look not to thy faith, but to Jesus, the author and finisher of thy faith.

We shall never find happiness by looking at our prayers, our doings, or our feelings; it is what Jesus is, not what we are, that gives rest to the soul.

If we would at once overcome Satan and have peace with God, it must be by "looking unto Jesus." Keep thine eye simply on Him; let His death, His sufferings, His merits, His glories, His intercession, be fresh upon thy mind; when thou wakest in the morning look to Him; when thou liest down at night look to Him.

Oh! let not thy hopes or fears come between thee and Jesus; follow hard after Him, and He will never fail thee.

"My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus' blood and righteousness:
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus' Name."

http://www.spurgeon.org/morn_eve/this_morning.cgi

 2007/6/28 13:44
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

if your christianity isent enough to get you victory over indwelling sin here and now, it isent enough to get you into heaven.

Alan Redpath

An unholy life is an evidence of an unchanged heart, an unchanged heart is an evidence of an unsaved soul....

Spurgeon


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/28 13:52Profile









 Re:

hmm..

Im not sure if you have been reading this whole thread, but nobody is arguing that you can live in known sin. This thread is about sinless perfection though, and Spurgeon certainly didnt preach that did he?

In Christ - Jim

 2007/6/28 13:58
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

maybe i missed something, ? no i dont think he did(Spurgeon), maybe im getting this concept of sinless perfection wrong ? i will go back and read more carefully......

i just relistend to the sermon from Alan Redpath, chosen to be holy, and i think he very good sums up what i belive God showes me through scripture. has anyone else listend to that sermon?


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/28 14:02Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
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 Re:

i lack word to express this but, so far in my walk after Jesus, i have come to this belief, that through his mercy and grace he will continue all through out my earthly life to show me my sins in my life, and he will give grace and power to overcome every single known sin that he shows me.

is that sinless perfection? to me thats just the normal Christian life :-) but i think it was Keith Daniel that said, holiness whiteout Christ is heresy....

God bless you all
Christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/28 14:20Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Have mercy on me God a sinner. is my constant heart-cry."
~ Greg Gordon


Hi Greg
The 'sinner' is really someone whose prevailing pattern of life is sin. If we are indeed never changed in our natures what has happened to that promise that 'he would save his people from their sins'? If 'sin' is characteristic of our way of life we are sinners.

The sinner may do a righteous act and the righteous man may commit a sin, but does that change his nature? either way? Surely not? Do I profess to be one who never sins? Not at all, but I know that God has changed my nature and things which held me captive no longer have that power. I know that the pattern of my life has changed and its ruling powers. Something has plainly happened to the man who can write...

[color=0033FF]Rom. 6:18 (NKJV) And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Rom. 6:20 (NKJV) ¶ For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

Rom. 6:22 (NKJV) But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Rom. 8:2 (NKJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [/color]


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Ron Bailey

 2007/6/29 16:14Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
Have mercy on me God a sinner. is my constant heart-cry."
~ Greg Gordon


Hi Greg
The 'sinner' is really someone whose prevailing pattern of life is sin. If we are indeed never changed in our natures what has happened to that promise that 'he would save his people from their sins'? If 'sin' is characteristic of our way of life we are sinners.

The sinner may do a righteous act and the righteous man may commit a sin, but does that change his nature? either way? Surely not? Do I profess to be one who never sins? Not at all, but I know that God has changed my nature and things which held me captive no longer have that power. I know that the pattern of my life has changed and its ruling powers. Something has plainly happened to the man who can write...

[color=0033FF]Rom. 6:18 (NKJV) And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Rom. 6:20 (NKJV) ¶ For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

Rom. 6:22 (NKJV) But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Rom. 8:2 (NKJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.[/color]

In practice I find that, if the Lord exposes something wrong in my heart, He CAN AND WILL deal with it, if I co-operate.

This means that I no longer despair if He exposes sin in my life. Even ingrained habits of mind that lead to wrong attitudes or even words and actions can be dealt with - for good!

A natural illustration is that as long as the blood is flowing it cleanses the body form infection. But if the blood flow is cut off from part of the body, then that part dies. It can get horribly infected (as with a pressure sore, or varicose ulcer), even threatening a person's life. Or it may simply wither and fall away (as when someone loses fingers or toes from frostbite)

Deliverance from sin is a dynamic process, not a once for all experience of being "sanctified". As the Blood flows (as it were) so the body is cleansed.

But, however it's expressed, I KNOW that He is strong to deliver from self and sin and all the snares and wiles of the Evil One.

Hallelujah!!!! :-D :-D :-D

Jeannette

 2007/6/29 16:30





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