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death2self
Member



Joined: 2006/9/28
Posts: 192
Washington DC area

 Re:

I've posted an article written by the Holiness preacher named A.M. Hills (that is actually posed here). He actually entered into this, so he could attest to it both doctrinally and experientially. Among his contemporaries who preached this and walked it out were G.C. Bevington (one of the first students at God's Bible School in Cincinnati) and Oswald Chambers, a fellow instructor for a few years at the same institution.

On a personal note, I would have found the topic insulting and would have been quite offended to read the article below. Having spent a significant amount of time, reading, praying and seeking God, as well as reading many of the holiness classics has led me to reconsider my previously held views during the last couple of years.

Holiness Rejected Makes Strange Bedfellows by Aaron (A.M. Hills)

In my rounds in many states I have observed a remarkable spirit of union and fraternity among people who seemingly would have no bond of union whatever. Here are the conflicting theories of these separate classes.

1. There are those who proclaim very openly that there is no such thing as sanctification. It is a state impossible of attainment. The devil puts his finger to his nose at this announcement, and all the giddy and backslidden of earth nod their assent, and the tides of worldliness and sin roll on "merry as a marriage bell."

2. Another group rise and declare that they "got it all at conversion." Satan indulges in a little broader smile, and every imp of the pit is delighted, and all their confederates in the dead churches are serenely happy over the between class No. 1 and class No. 2.

3. Another company testify that they are of the opinion that somehow they must have missed it at conversion; but they hope they are growing into it, or would at least like to do so. Beelzebub, at this, laughs audibly; his confederates in the pit join in, and class No. 1 and class No. 2 open their ranks to welcome class No. 3. They all clasp hands and, without the slightest sense of inconsistency, sing, "How pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity and love!"

4. Another large throng say that sanctification is a good thing, that would be very convenient to have around, if we could only get it in this life. It would truly be just the thing to help us through the tight places of our earthly pilgrimage. But the inbred sin of our natures is so deep-seated that the blood of Christ cannot reach it, nor the fire of the Spirit-baptism consume it. Therefore we must wait until the great physician, death, purges our hearts of the Satan loose a peal of laughter that makes the wreathing clouds of the ascending smoke of torment tremble with the waves of jubilant sound. All the demons of the pit join in to swell the chorus. All the careless and the backslidden of earth stop their card playing and dancing long enough to make a motion that classes No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3 admit class No. 4 into fraternity. It carries unanimously, and they all join in singing, "The fellowship of kindred minds is like to that above."

5. A still larger throng rise and say "Yes, sanctification is a good thing. We must doubtless all have it to be for heaven. But it is beyond the possibility of either any divine grace or even death, to effect it; it is to be wrought in us by our purgatorial fire" This transfers the whole thing over to Apollyon's territory! And he rises amidst great applause, and moves that this view be celebrated by a carnival in hell. It is unanimously carried with a din of merriment that is indescribable. Meantime this mirth is catching on earth. Bishops and presiding elders and church officials smile and joke about this universal sanctification which, like the grace of God, leaves none out. The spirit of union grows wider, and the first four classes open to take in the fifth. They lustily sing: "Brothers, brothers all are we, A jolly confraternity."

It begins to look as if all humanity were going to be banded together in unity and love.

6. A little company rise and humbly say, with a heavenly radiance on their upturned faces: "After our conversion we sought, by faith, purity of heart as a second work of grace. The baptism with the Spirit came upon us with the suddenness of Pentecost. We are sanctified now; for 'the blood of Jesus Christ . . . a hallelujah of praise floats down from the skies. But quicker than a flash the devil leaps to his feet with a roar of rage that makes every cavern of hell quiver. Every power of darkness fairly howls his hate, every hell-bound bays his loudest. Meantime on earth every spiritual harlot and covetous moneybags and scheming ecclesiastic and carnal bigot and backslidden worldling, and all the other five classes, who were so lenient towards one another's divergent views, open up in a torrent of vituperation and rage. With consent they cry, "Down with this heresy!" "Put them out!" And all earth and hell pour out their hottest venom against these devoted people, reminding one of the enmity that once howled about the cross of Christ.

How is all this to be accounted for? How can all those other five classes tolerate one another so graciously as common bedfellows, while they rise in such a storm of hate against the testimony to sanctification as given in the blessed Word?

Candidly now, is not this the only explanation: that this doctrine is the truth, and the devil is determined that none shall testify that the blood of Jesus . . . cleanseth us from all sin"? He raises earth and hell to put this testimony down. John Wesley long ago said, "This is the word which the devil peculiarly hates, and stirs up his children against; but it is the word which God will always bless."

Let those who band together to fight holiness think on these things.

Let them ask how it is that the irreconcilable divergence of the first five views troubles nobody, and the adherents of them are in such sweet peace with one another; while they all unite in virulent opposition to the sixth view, by John Wesley and his spiritual descendants, and belch forth a common chorus of hate like that which raged about the Cross, springing from ever class and condition of men.

Is not this plainly the old war of carnality against truth and God? Is it not the same contest, age-long, between good and evil, light and darkness, righteousness and sin?

In a Texas conference some years ago three men preached on the subject of sanctification. The first held that it was gotten at the time of conversion. The second held that Christians grew into it after conversion. The third held that we obtained it at death. But all three of those ministers, and all the rest who did not care when they obtained it, or whether they received it at all, or whether there was any such thing, banded together and expelled from the ministry a fellow minister for preaching sanctification as a second work of grace, received by faith after regeneration!!

Truth forever on the scaffold,
Wrong forever on the throne,
Yet that scaffold sways the future,
And, behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadow,
Keeping watch above His own.

What more pathetic passage is there in Christian literature than John Wesley's closing appeal, "On Christian Perfection?" "Who is he that will open his mouth against being cleansed from all pollution, both of flesh and spirit, or against having all the mind that was in Christ -- has the hardiness to object to the devoting, not a part, but all our soul, body and substance to God? Let this Christian perfection appear in its own shape, and who will fight against it? It must be disguised before it can be opposed. It must be covered with a bearskin first, or even the wild beasts of the people will scarce be induced to worry it. But whatever these do, let not the children of God any longer fit against the image of God. Let not those who are alive to God oppose dedicating all our life to Him.

"We allow, we contend, that we are justified freely through the righteousness and the blood of Christ. And why are you so hot against us because we expect likewise to be sanctified wholly through His Spirit? How long will you who worship God in spirit . . . set your battle in array against those who seek an entire 'circumcision of heart' who thirst to be cleansed 'from all filthiness of flesh and spirit,' and to 'perfect holiness in the fear of God?' Nay, we your enemies because we look for a full deliverance from the carnal mind, which is enmity against God? Nay, we are your brethren, your the vineyard of our Lord, your companions in the kingdom and patience of Jesus."

His articles can be viewed here: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=499]A.M. Hills[/url]. He wrote an excellent exposition of 1 John entitled "Cleansing From All Sin," which is also a pertinent article...


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2007/6/27 14:44Profile
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

if death is the fruit of sin, and Christ destroyed sin om the cross, then why do people who are totaly sanctified still die?
because if they have no more sin in them then death should not have any effect on them?
another more important questioned is why would they need glorified bodies? shouldnt they already being in some glorfied state since sin is no longer in them?
please explain...


_________________
andy

 2007/6/27 15:25Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

another question would be;

why do some newborn babies die? have they sinned?

and christians dont die ;-) death is just the busride to eternal bliss and glory!


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/27 15:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:
why do some newborn babies die? have they sinned?



bro - you just proved andres point.... we all die physically because our flesh is corrupt.

Psalm 22:10
From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God.

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/6/27 15:35
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

but if thier is no sin in tbeir physical bodies, why then do they physical die? why do thier bodies grow old and frail? why would they need to have a glorfied body? is not the death of the physical body a curse that came from the sin of adam. and was tranfered to us?
love andy

( anywho how is your daughter, all better?)


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andy

 2007/6/27 15:43Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

what is falling in this verse?

679 a;ptaistoj aptaistos {ap-tah'-ee-stos}
Meaning: 1) not stumbling, standing firm, exempt from falling

he is able to keep me, i im sure about that,

and the word faultless

299 a;mwmoj amomos {am'-o-mos}
Meaning: 1) without blemish 1a) as a sacrifice without spot or blemish 2) morally: without blemish, faultless, unblameable
Origin: from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3470; TDNT - 4:830,619; adj


HE is able brothers....God can do everything, we can get victory over sin



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CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/27 15:48Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

andres wrote:
but if thier is no sin in tbeir physical bodies, why then do they physical die? why do thier bodies grow old and frail? why would they need to have a glorfied body? is not the death of the physical body a curse that came from the sin of adam. and was tranfered to us?
love andy

( anywho how is your daughter, all better?)




yes glory and praise to God she is healty and a blessing :-)

i dont know all the answeers brother, but i do lknow there is victory over sin, im not talking about sinless perfection, but i do belive i can get victory over ebery sin in my life through HIM. there must be that possibility, if not, then to me thats like saying the devils power to keep a man is stronger then Jesus work on the cross....or im i wrong?


edit: i also would have a hard time understand how God can say if you love me keep my commandments....when he in that case knows no one can do that.....


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/6/27 15:49Profile









 Re:

Brother hmm-

What is the difference between the victory you are speaking of and sinless perfection?

in Christ - Jim

 2007/6/27 16:04
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

yes , you are utterly right, victory over sin is the believers promise in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:14, "sin shall not have dominion over you" , we are no longer CONTROLLED by sin. if that was not true we would be in a bad place...meaning i dont have to be the same person that i was before.. that is why we need to pick up our cross everyday, so we can put to death our sinful flesh everyday...Luke 9:23 "take up your cross daily and follow after me" where was jesus going with his cross? ---to die and jesus said to do this daily,.. come and die with me in identification daily ( rom 6.6). for only those who do this can have victory..
love andy


_________________
andy

 2007/6/27 16:08Profile
Psalm73
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 60
Arkansas

 The Cross is strong, but enduring as a Christian?

Do not think that I go about to destroy you with my 1530s looking English with modern sounding vocals. I am not into self promotion neither was Luther, and look how the fire caught Tyndale. How the daie that I laid eyes upon the Geneva, only if I could have not been stopped by the Calvinist notes, which draw men into perdition and causes the blind to go blinder.
The orignal corruption of George Joye is replacing the with that and someone never correcting in their (faithofgod.net) 1534 with 1525 variants modern abridged Tyndale. This verse: Romans 1:31, commit such things, is corrected using Romans 2:5, and another place Paul uses it to say that those which commit such thinges are worthy of death, not only did them, but have pleasure in them that did them
1534 with 1525 variants to push out G.Joy
I Tim 2;5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,
6 which gave himself a ransom for all men, that it should be preached at his time,
7 whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle (I tell the truth in Christ and lie not) being the teacher of the gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I woll therefore that the men pray every where, lifting up pure hands without wrath, or arguing.

After his bible was condemned and unburnable, Tyndale was immediately betrayed of his friends, ever read the Coverdale? This man lived and didn't care a twit for W.T. We forget also that our foes shallbe those of our own household (that is if we don't commit such things, nor hold to our heart vain vanities)

I have a website with short sermons for ye to see if whether or not the holy ghost preaching is the strait way or is the worldly covetous way (for the wrath of God is abiding on such deceivers)
[url=http://www.geocities.com/dethhead2000/meeknesstemperancy.html]Meek are we not?[/url]


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Terry L Merritt

 2007/6/27 16:13Profile





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