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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Exposing Bad Exposition: Answering Opposition to True Holiness

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 Re:

ninja-

here is something from the consuming fire site... God bless.

Quote:

Erica wrote:
To say that a Child of God is unable to reach a state of perfect love toward God and be entirely holy in thought, word, and deed is to say that Jesus Christ failed in His purpose! Oh that we wouldn't entertain the thought of such statement! Christ is able to save to the uttermost! From all sin, from all unrightousness; not in theory but in actuality.



Quote:

Giancarlo wrote:
But I should be there, and their are no excuses for it is by faith. He is able, but sometimes He makes us wait.



I want to make a few direct comments that I hope will be meditated on and taken in love. They are not accusations against anyone, not even Giancarlo who I still extend the graces to as a dear brother. However, they are quite sensational comments in keeping with the theme of these threads and so that you can see the implications of your doctrine and comments.

A) By holding this doctrine but NOT entering into complete sanctification, you are admitting to one of the following:
1) The Lord failed you guys in riverside , that is Jesus Christ has failed His purpose as one dear sister wrote above
2) You are faithless, compromised, and using the grace of God as an occasion for sin (and therefore not truly His children)
3) The Lord is making you wait to enter in... that it's the Lords will for you to stay in a sinful state, that IT IS GODS WILL FOR YOU TO STAY IN SOME FORM OF SIN for a season before He completely sanctifies you (as Giancarlo stated on SI)

Which one is it??? Is Jesus Christ "failing you" to this point, are you faithless, is it the Lords will that you should stay in sin at this time, or is there something wrong with your doctrine?


B)
Quote:

Erica wote:
We are to be partakes of His holiness (Heb. 12:10). Was His holiness only in theory or just "positionally"? Certainly not! It was an undeniable fact; He walked out in all truth and He was holy, blameless and without any forms of sin



Sister - You are here stating that holiness = complete sanctification... yet Giancarlo has publicly stated that he does not live in that state? So are you saying that he is not holy??? (and without holiness no man will see the Lord). Surely then you will remove yourself from this fellowship with an unholy man as the sheppard at once in keeping with the apostles teaching! (Again - the strong emphasis here is not to say that brother Giancarlo is not holy, only to show the flaws in the false reasoning that goes along with the teaching of sinless perfection)

C)
Giancarlo - you stated on the SI thread that it is possible for someone to walk sinless perfect then to fall back into sin... dear brother listen to what you are saying here? That a man can be born steeped in sin, born again, completely sanctified and then "un-completely sanctified" if you will???? This is a contradiction to the highest degree, to say that ones sinful nature can be completely eradicated only to have it return?

If I said it is possible for a man to walk for a long period of time with no known forms of sin (thought, word or deed) and then to realize that he lacks faith in a new situation that has come up or has missed the mark in some other way and needs to repent and move forward in victory through faith... I would be describing the same thing that you are, only without the extra biblcal doctrine of sinless perfection. What is the difference between the normal Christian walk that I have described here and your explanation above?

D) I am also disturbed that many readers would only know one side of this story (and so be influenced by lack of knowledge) and are unaware that the brothers from Detroit who are coming against your doctrine are walking in holiness; and proclaiming it in the streets. This has nothing to do with "actual vs perceived" holiness (we preach that too :0).. However, if actual holiness = sinless perfection as is being stated then you are admittedly not holy and I need not listen to another word you speak concerning the scriptures anyway.

I'll close in echoing the concerns of Josef in his original article, that of the cycle of self righteousness and condemnation that goes along with this preaching and brings about a form of religious bondage that is anything but of Christ.

Psalm 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/6/25 12:36
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

A) All your premises are Wrong this is why....

1) God has not failed, He has saved us, and we are holy, we are perfecting holiness( !Cor 7:1)
2) Jesus never begins a work He never finishes Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
-Jesus has not failed His work at all here, He is just not done with the work
3) Jesus it is His will that we enter, this very day He can perform the miracle,. We can all enter the promised Land this very day, but as I said and gave an example Joshua and Caleb were delayed from entering the promised land because of others unbelief. Maybe your unbelief has hindred us from ALL entering in together-Jim


B) All Sister Erica was saying was that Jesus was without sin in any way and we are to partake of HIS Holiness, so if Jesus had no indwelling or outward sin, then this scripure is promising that we will be partaking of His holiness. Jesus holiness given to us and being worked out in us isentire sanctification, it is perfect holiness No contradiction at all

C) That is no contradication at all. Holy angels that are and were completely sanctified in the very presence of God, sinned because they have a free will. Christian Perfection destroys all sin, not human will. Jesus lived a sinless life and had the very real possibilty of sinning but did no sin! Why? Not because of inability, but because He resisted.

A perfect Christian has pefect faith, perfect hope, and perfect love, that is the difference between what you are saying. Holiness is good and is the noraml Christian live, but the point is perfecting holiness!

D) I disagree with what you are saying here, Most of our readers now exactly what is going, it is not one sided.


Josef is wrongly applying Christian Perfection upon those who preach it, saying that all who preach as we preach live in self-rigteousness and condemnation, but that is not the case here. Some may fall into it because they do not know what they are talking about. Once again our concerns are shared with Josef, but his exposition and premises are wrong, He is misusing scriputre and misrepresenting holiness preachers like Wesley and all the Methodists, and those who believe they can live free from all sin.

Quote:

Psalm 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults.



That is a great scripture proves that all unknown sin can be forgiven and removed completey when God shows them.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/25 13:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:
2) Jesus never begins a work He never finishes Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:



Giancarlo- sorry for doing duel postings on consuming-fire... Ill go back to SI strictlye for now.

Are you saying that any saint (born again, living without any known sin in there life, perfecting holiness) who dies without becoming "sinlessy perfect" is a failed work of Christ?

In Him - Jim

 2007/6/25 13:24
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

jimdied2sin wrote:
Quote:
2) Jesus never begins a work He never finishes Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:



Giancarlo- sorry for doing duel postings on consuming-fire... Ill go back to SI strictlye for now.

Are you saying that any saint (born again, living without any known sin in there life, perfecting holiness) who dies without becoming "sinlessy perfect" is a failed work of Christ?

In Him - Jim



Well, a person who dies in sin and unsanctifed would die as an apostate and a Rebel against God....

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 [b]For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end[/b];
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

It applies to sanctification in that they were deliver from Egypt(world) and Pharoah(the devil) and they would not give up their sin and unbelief so God refused them entrance to the promised land. So we partake with Christ only if we remain steadfast to the end.


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/25 13:36Profile
Godsninja
Member



Joined: 2007/4/17
Posts: 2


 Re:

doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooode!!!!!!!!


=/


jimmy dude ur like not understanding...its like we write something, and it makes sense, then you read it and then CRASH! not getting it. its elementary my dear jim.

jim can you tell me what the fellowship in riverside believes about entire sanctification. and can you also explain to me the logic that is used to come to that conclusion.

si or no?

 2007/6/25 15:13Profile
Andrew_Strom
Member



Joined: 2006/8/24
Posts: 98


 Re:


QUESTION ASKED TO GIANCARLO:
"Are you saying that any saint (born again, living without any known sin in there life, perfecting holiness) who dies without becoming "sinlessy perfect" is a failed work of Christ?"

GIANCARLO's REPLY:
"Well, a person who dies in sin and unsanctifed would die as an apostate and a Rebel against God...."

WELL THEN - MY QUESTION TO GIANCARLO:
Does that mean if you personally are not sanctified in this way by the end of your life,
Giancarlo, then you will go to hell?

Are you saying you would be an apostate and a
rebel against God?

-Andrew.

 2007/6/25 17:15Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/25 18:21Profile
Andrew_Strom
Member



Joined: 2006/8/24
Posts: 98


 Re:


I really need a direct answer to my question, Giancarlo, because it is really at the heart of this whole dispute. We need you to answer this yourself, if possible, rather than just posting Scriptures without comment.

I am very sorry to be so blunt about it, but this point is so important that we really need a direct reply in your own words. Here is the question again-


JIM'S QUESTION ASKED TO GIANCARLO:
"Are you saying that any saint (born again, living without any known sin in there life, perfecting holiness) who dies without becoming "sinlessy perfect" is a failed work of Christ?"

GIANCARLO's REPLY:
"Well, a person who dies in sin and unsanctifed would die as an apostate and a Rebel against God...."

WELL THEN - MY QUESTION TO GIANCARLO:
Does that mean if you personally are not sanctified in this way by the end of your life,
Giancarlo, then you will go to hell?

Are you saying you would be an apostate and a
rebel against God?

-Andrew.

 2007/6/25 18:35Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

What does the scripture say? I think God says it best...


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/25 18:40Profile
Andrew_Strom
Member



Joined: 2006/8/24
Posts: 98


 Re:


In other words, you have no answer to this simple question? -It is at the very crux of the dispute here, and yet you have no answer?

-Andrew.

 2007/6/25 18:47Profile





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