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Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711



Christisking wrote:
You can only speculate and teach what the bible says on it.

So your are only teaching speculations - boy, I am glad to hear that - at least now there is some hope for you ;-) I guess when you have arrived at this imaginary state of sinless perfection then you can teach on it - until then as you said it is mere speculation. Your glorification example is faulty because no one has obtained glorification is is still able to preach on - rather it is like someone preaching repentance who has not yet repented or some preaching justification who has yet to be justified.

Do you know anyone who claims to reach this point of sinlessness and claims to be on par with the glory of God? If so who?

The Bible thunders against such doctrines as sinless perfection as you teach it all throughout the old and new testaments.


No I didnt say it was speculation(doctrine of Sanctification) it is as real as real can be, but I can only speculate on it.

Others have entered that blessed state and have written volumes on it, one of them is the Apostle John and Apostle Paul, they knew what it was to have 1 Cor. 13.

So Patrick have you ever preach on something you have not completely entered into or experienced? Like the Judgment Seat of Christ perhaps? Yes.. you have not actually experienced it just yet and wont for a long time if the Lord grants you more life, but you can clearly preach it, and I have hear you and you have done good job at it ;-)

That is how I preach sanctification. Even though I have not entered that blessed rest/ I can also preach on healinh even though I personally have never been healed, so can you so can all true saints.


 2007/6/22 14:43Profile

Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711



Christisking wrote:
Your point is excellent Jim - I guess Giancarlo will have to forbid all of the saints in Riverside from reading the Old Paths and articles written and published by men such as Greg Gordon who in his opinion are:

1) overthrowing the saints’ holy faith
2) creating a stumbling block for those who are on the highway of holiness.
3) possible antinomians
4) apostate teachers who go forth to discourage and poison the minds of sincere believers
5) They do not the workings of power of the holy ghost
6) Misuse and misunderstand the scripture as in this case
7)propogating carnal men’s doctrines

:-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o


What are you talking about?

If you publish anything that is what you think your view is I will not at all stop you from doing that. I am not a tyrant my friend, the saints are able to read whateve they like.


When their is a bad exposition I will point it out

When People are trying to lay stumbling block I will try to remove it

When people are being mislead into any forms even subtle forms of Antinomianism I will raise my voice

When people who are apostates like Antinomious or Falcius and the Gnostics I will come them apostates

When people don't see all the Power of God through the Holy Spirit in sanctification or in tongues I will speak out, just like McArthur who denies both, he knows not the scripture nor the power of God

When people are propagating carnal men's doctrine I will speak out as well, even if it comes from this ministry or any other


 2007/6/22 14:52Profile

Joined: 2006/9/28
Posts: 192
Washington DC area


I believe in what Wesley referred to as "entire sanctification" and believe it's scriptural. It is interesting to note that William Seymour preached on "entire sanctification" before he entered into Canaan land. Here's a series of MP3 on Azusa Street that those who are interested in should prayerfully consider: [url=]"The Rejected Blessing" interviews[/url].

I believe the stumbling block for many is on this issue of "sinless perfection" and am reminded by what Reader Harris said some years ago

"The proper field for discussion is not whether or not any individual Christian lives unintermittently without committing sin. That is a matter between his own conscience and God and he is not called upon to give account of himself in this respect to his fellowmen. What we ought to discuss is this: Has God made or has He not made an adequate provide for complete deliverance in this life from any sin? To argue that God has made an adequate provision, but that, for some reason or other, no Christian ever receives the benefit of it, is really to prove that is inadequate and therefore useless."

Here's a couple of questions and answers that John Wesley answered regarding "entire sanctification":
Q. What is implied in being a perfect Christian?

A. The loving God with all our heart, and mind, and soul. (Deut. 6:5.)

Q. Does this imply, that all inward sin is taken away?

A. Undoubtedly; or how can we be Said to be `saved from all `our uncleannesses?' (Ezek. 36:29.)

Q. When may a person judge himself to have attained this?

A. When, after having been fully convinced of inbred sin, by a far deeper and clearer conviction than that he experienced before justification, and after having experienced a gradual mortification of it, he experiences a total death to sin, and an entire renewal in the love and image of God, so as to rejoice evermore, to pray without ceasing, and in everything to give thanks. Not that `to feel all love and no sin' is a sufficient proof. Several have experienced this for a time, before their souls were fully renewed. None therefore ought to believe that the work is done, till there is added the testimony of the Spirit, witnessing his entire sanctification, as clearly as his justification.

I pray that Jesus will answer the cries of your heart and of your fellowship Forevidence. As for me personally, I can't say the work is finished. Why would you ask is this not so? The Lord has painfully been dealing with "my ways" and have been freed in part but not in the whole. The work of the Holy Spirit unveils the ways of the human heart and they begin to change as we repent and forsake our ways.

The real holiness preachers of old believed that sanctification was by faith. It's only something that the blood of Jesus can do in our hearts but experientially it's real and many sisters and brothers lives have borne fruit of this.

I'm not suggesting by these quotes that someone is not a Christian because they are not "entirely sanctified." Wesley didn't claim this either and it's very clear in the sermon "The More Excellent Way" which I believe someone cited.

May the name of Jesus be lifted up and may He have His in our hearts and in our lives.

Ed Pugh

 2007/6/22 15:51Profile

 Re:The Image.

Anyone who is not speaking directly from God ("the very oracles of God") and using their own words are antinominian.

Anyone who does not have the Mind of Christ continuously, are antinominian.

Anyone who spends one single second for themselves and not in Christ is antinominian.

Anyone who is not 'Exactly' resembling Jesus and is 'presently' (and always presently) doing exactly what HE would be thinking (or more exactly, 'IS' thinking) is Antinominain.

In other words ... Who will stand right now and say they are doing exactly what HE is doing through them or saying only what HE is presently telling them to say, and at all times and thinking at all times, that which the Father is thinking, like Jesus did while setting here and setting THE example for us.

Any autonomy is antinomianism.

And if you think that you are walking exactly as Jesus would and thinking and talking and DOing all that The Father is thinking, saying and wanting to do through you ... then you've "missed the mark" already.

If being exactly as Jesus was - in CONSTANT hearing and speaking and do-ing exactly and only what the Father was telling Him to --- every second of our days ... is what you think you have attained to --- then you are sadly deceived.

By our dying to self, we can experience 'some' of the above ... we decide how much dying for how much of HIM will be 'us' ... but the rest of this defining of Holiness is just mere flesh boasting itself again.

We are "Set Apart for Holy Use" ... that's Him working through us as HE did through Paul.

Are you even like Paul ?

 2007/6/22 16:52

 Re: True Holiness

Bro Forevidence

Until recently I have avoided this topic, because of having sat under this teaching of entire sanctification a great deal in the past. I believed it, and thought I understood it. And suffered as a result, because it brought only condemnation and despair.

But did I TRULY understand what was being taught???

You said, (phrases from different posts - its a long thread):

I believe sanctification is by faith not works... so did all the holines people. So I am not looking at self, I am looking to Christ [ufor Him to become my Sanctification[/u]....

....I believe in Jesus as my sanctification...
but that sanctification is not just theoretical but very real

But if Jesus is your sanctification you yourself don't become sanctified - because HE is, and what can anyone add to His finished work?!

You also said:
I have yet to attain entire sanctification, but I believe God will do that work in me.

I have met many saints who are sinless and are living in this day

This seems to contradict the first quotes! How can entire sanctification be ATTAINED????


After the Lord brought me out of condemnation, a year or two ago only, I came to understand things this way (adapted from the other thread):

We may know perfection, yet it is not OUR perfection, not OUR righteousness, still less our ATTAINMENT, but HIS.

This takes all the strain and striving and legalism and self-righteousness out of living a holy life.

"...not I but Christ lives in me..." (Galatians 2:20)

"The LORD our righteousness". (Jer 23:6; 33:16)

I have no righteousness, no perfection of my own, and never shall have. But as He increasingly lives in me, so His life is outworked in the midst of my life.

This perfect life is, HIS perfect Life not mine. "Not of the will of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD" (John 1:13)

My responsibility is to receive and co-operate with that life of Christ within. As Mary did in the natural when she agreed to let the Lord use her body to bring forth the Messiah.

Striving for [i]personal[/i] perfection or holiness is an [u]insult[/u] to His perfect Holiness who dwells within us.

WE are not the sinless ones - JESUS is.

WE are not perfect - JESUS is

And if JESUS is in us then His perfection is in us, as a well of living water springing up as we abide in Him.

That way HE gets all the glory, not us.

We are not sinless, we are dead, we are out of thigs! We have "died to sin"!

Self-righteousness, righteousness that springs from self not from HIM, is "as filthy rags" as Isaiah said.

I have stopped striving for perfection or sanctification. Not because I'm perfect or "entirely sanctified", but because striving for perfection is actually sin! It means I have not submitted myself to HIS righteousness, but am trying to establish my own - as Paul said (Romans 10, below)!

Fig leaves can never cover our nakedness; only the garment of the slain Lamb can! (Genesis 3)

Romans 10 (my emphasis):
[i][color=000099]10:2 For I can testify that they are zealous for God but their zeal is not in line with the truth 10:3 For [i][b]ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking instead to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to God’s righteousness[/b][/i]. 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.
10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the law: “The one who does these things will live by them.” 10:6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 10:7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 10:8 But what does it say? “[i][b]The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart [/b][/i](that is, the word of faith that we preach), 10:9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10:10 For [i][b]with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness[/b][/i] and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. 10:11 r the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”[/color][/i]

in His love


 2007/6/22 18:20



These are some more remarks I would like to make:

1. I agree with Josef - Patrick - Andrew, along with Wesley - Brengle - Finney, etc etc, that all known and willfull sin must be repented of or else you are not saved.

2. The only thing it seems that I disagree with Josef - Patrick - Andrew on, is why unknown sin must remain unknown, or how long unknown sin must remain unknown.

I believe that God is willing and ready to reveal to us all of our sins so that we can turn from all of them and be perfect in this life according to His Holy Will.

3. Andrew, Wesley did not contradict himself when it came to perfection. The Wesleyan holiness movement taught that at conversion, all known and willfull sin was removed. But new converts, or new believers, still had sin inside of them called original sin, which need a second work of grace to be completely removed, ie a second blessing.

So Wesley did not contradict himself. He said new born christians had indwelling sin still, but sanctified Christians did not.

4. Augustine, Wesley, Brengle, Booth, all defined "Original Sin" which we inherit at birth as inward feelings or involuntary emotions of the flesh, a physical inclination, bias, or proneness towards sin. Augustine called it concupiscence.

I disagree with Augustine, Wesley, Brengle, and Booth, and agree with Finney on this issue. I believe that we inherit physical depravity from our parents, physical depravity is hereditary, but that this physical depravity is not a sin itself, but is a temptation to sin. Just how a drug baby inherits physical cravings for drugs, but has no moral guilt, and those physical cravings are temptation but not a sin.

5. I deny completely that inward cleansing is a second definite work, rather then a first work at conversion, because Jesus said "FIRST clean the INSIDE of the cup and then the OUTSIDE will be clean also". The first work is the inward cleansing of inward sin, which results in outward cleaniness of coarse.

6. I define inward sin as a heart or a will to sin, an evil intention or motive, but not a physical inward feeling or an involuntary emotion. What is physical and involuntary can only be tempation, but not a sin.

7. Inward sin must be removed at conversion, purity of heart, or repentance from all selfish motives, must take place before justification can occur. The only forgivable sins are the repented sins.

8. Physical feelings, involuntary emotions, the physical bias - inclination - proneness to sin is not a sin itself, but a temptation or an influence to sin, which will remain as long as we remain in this body, until the glorified body is recieved. There is no such thing as a physical regeneration, but only a spiritual - moral - heart regeneration in this life.

9. All known sin must be repented of for forgiveness and salvation to occur, and God is willing and able to reveal to us all of our sins, and all true Christians are willing to have all sins revealed to them, so that they can turn from all sin and be perfect in heart.

There is absolutely no excuse or reasonable answer as to why unknown sins must remain unknown for our whole life. Christ is a bright light which illuminates all.



Because I feel that it has already been abundantly shown from reason and revelation that Christian perfection is required and attainable in this life at conversion, I think it best now to appeal to one of the great Revivalists and Giants of the faith:

Quotes from Professor and Revivalist Charles G. Finney, who was by far the most sound theologian since the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John. These quotes are from his Systematic Theology - 1851 Edition.

(For help in understanding these quotes, it must be understood that Finney defined sin as willfull transgression of known law, and that Christian perfection - entire sanctification is syonomous with complete and total repentance, which is the turning away from all known sin, which God reveals to us).

"Present sanctification, in the sense of present full consecreation to God, is another condition, not ground, of justification. Some theologians have made justification a condition of sanctification, instead of making sanctification a condition of justification." pg 467

"It certainly cannot be true, that God accepts and justifies the sinner in his sins. I may safely challenge the world to either reason or scripture to support the doctrine of justification in sin, in any degree of present rebellion against God. The bible everywhere represents persons as sanctified, and always expressly, or impliedly, conditionates justification upon sanctification, in the sense of present obedience to God." pg 468

"That present, full, and entire consecration of heart and life to God and his service, is an unalterable condition of present pardon of past sins, and of present acceptance with God." pg 468

"That the penitent soul remains justified no longer than this full hearted consecration continues. If he falls from his first love into a spirit of self pleasing, he falls again into bondage to sin and to the law, is condemned, and must repent and do his first work, must return to Christ and renew his faith and love, as a condition of his salvation. This is the most express teaching of the bible." pg 469

"In the lectures on justification and repentance, it has been shown that nothing is acceptable to God, as a condition of justification and of consequent salvation, but repentance that implies a return to full obedience to moral law." pg 497

"Now, as sanctification consists in perfect obedience to the law of God, and as the law requires nothing more then the right use of whatever strength we have, it is, of coarse, forever settled, that a state of entire sanctification is attainable in this life, on the ground of natural ability." pg 502

"If Paul lived without condemnation it must be because he lived without sin." pg 523

"It is plain, that men are naturally able to be entirely sanctified, in the sense of rendering entire and continual obedience to God, for the ability is a condition of obligation to do so." pg 533

"The objection, that it is irrational to expect to make such attainments in this life, as to get a complete victory over temptation and sin, must be groundless, or both the bible and the Holy Spirit are found false witnessess, but this cannot be, the thought of it is blasphemy." pg 594

"Men are naturally able to do all their duty, which is to be entirely sanctified." pg 489

"all true saints, while in a state of acceptance with God, do actually render for the time being, full obedience to known requirements of God; that is, that they do for the time being their whole duty, all that God, at this time, requires of them." pg 497

Now a couple from Asa Mahan, a dear friend of Finney's:

"Entire perfection in holiness is definitely and positively required of us in the bible, and that, for not rendering such obedience to God, we are wholly without excuse." Christian Perfect pg 8

"Entire sanctification, then, is attainable, or Christ failed, in one important respect, to finish the work which his father gave him to do." pg 15


- And so I agree with Finney that we inherit a physical bias towards sin, which will never be completely removed, which physical inclination is a tempation and not a sin.

- And that Christian Perfection is completely and total heart obedience to all known law and requirements, which God makes abundantly clear to all, and that one in a state of all possible obedience that they possible know to deliver, is in a state of moral or heart perfection.

- And that one who seeks to be saved must FIRST repent from all known sin, and thus be entirely sanctified or perfected before justification can occur, for only repented sins are forgivable sins.

- And that if a Christian in a state of complete obedience falls from it, they must repent or else they will perish.

- As we grow in knowledge, we must grow in obedience to that knowledge, so that in a sense a perfect Christian is still growing in obedience. If a perfect Christian grows in knowledge, but fails to obey that newly percieved knowledge, they obviously fall from a state of holiness and obedience.

 2007/6/22 23:42

Joined: 2006/3/5
Posts: 29
"No Certain dwellingplace"


AMEN GianCarlo.

Just a couple of things - nowhere in all of holiness literature will you find a single quote that says believers are not susceptible to sin. Of course every human that has breath in their bodies are susceptible to sin.

So when you use a mans quote, saying because he says we are susceptible to sin, he is teaching your stance, you fall into great error; not only that you called him a "great man of God" - kowing there is no such thing, and ironically the man whose quote you used preaches against such terminology and tells you that if you use that term their is something drastically wrong with your theology, and we can know that right away.

Anyhow, no one has said we are not susceptible, just called to a life of victory. the suceptibility is swallowed up in the gace of God, not making us immune to sin, but rather making us fear God and loathe sin, and therefore living a repentant life - which is a life of freedom from sin.

After all, what is the logical conclusion of repenting from all sin? Is it not living free from all sin? This is not prideful, pride is a sin, and if you are free from sin you are free from pride. This is not boasting in anything save Jesus Christ, the saviour who saves to the uttermost.

Just to let you know, Patrick, Josef, etc. - I love you brothers alot, I look forward to meeting you in SoCal, I would be honoured if you attended a meeting, but please watch your words when you deal with faithful brethren - It seems you are quick to accuse with harsh words, very harsh words, even some words that can condemn you if they are found to be unfounded. Just a brief exhortation.

And to let you know, I am nigh calvinist, I wouldnt call myself one, but doctrinally I almost fall their, and I believe the doctrine of righteousness, and living a righteous life before God, anything less is simply slander to God's grace; that teaches us to deny ungoldiness and worldly lusts, and live righteously, soberly and godly in this world. Does not our God desire complete obedience? If you say no, then just how much disobedience does our God allow?

Yours in service to Jesus Christ,

Evan Schaible

 2007/6/23 20:00Profile

 Re: HIS Image.

Anyone who is not speaking directly from God ("the very oracles of God") and using their 'own' words are antinominian.

Anyone who does not have the Mind of Christ 'continuously', are antinominian.

Anyone who spends one single second for themselves and not in Christ is antinominian.

Anyone who is not 'Exactly' resembling Jesus and is 'presently' (and always presently) doing exactly what HE would be thinking (more exactly, 'IS' thinking) is Antinominain.

In other words ... Who will stand right now and say they are doing exactly what HE is doing through them or saying only what HE is presently telling them to say, and at all times and thinking at all times, that which the Father is thinking, like Jesus did while setting here and setting THE example for us.

Any autonomy is antinomianism.

If you are not walking 'exactly' as Jesus IS or thinking - talking and DOing all that The Father IS thinking, saying and wanting to do through you at this minute and every minute ... then you've "missed the mark".

If being exactly as Jesus was - in CONSTANT DEPENDENCE ON THE FATHER - hearing - speaking and do-ing 'exactly and only' what the Father was telling Him to --- every second of our days ... is what you think you have attained to --- then you are sadly deceived.

By our dying to self, we can experience 'some' of the above ... but we decide how much dying to self for how much of HIM will be 'us' ... but the rest of this defining of Holiness is just mere flesh boasting itself again.

We are "Set Apart for Holy Use" ... that's HIM, HE, The Father working through us as HE did through His only Examples ... Jesus, Paul ....

Are you even like Paul ?

Paul was the closest example of "following Christ" because he learned the secret of "NOTHING OF SELF". HE could say, follow me 'as' I follow Christ. Can any of us say that as HE did ?

Once again, if you limit this to just the cessation of just known "sins", you've "missed the mark" already and the whole purpose that you were CREATED.


 2007/6/23 21:19

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Does not our God desire complete obedience? If you say no, then just how much disobedience does our God allow?

Certainly we never have permission to disobey God. Goes does not allow [i]any[/i] disobedience whatsoever.

The questions then become; what is the recourse if a Christian sins? What is a 'sin' in the first place?

Most would say that a 'sin' is an act of disobedience to the known will of God. Yet sin means to miss the mark also- so as not to achieve the prize. To sin is to [i]fall short of the glory of God[/i]. Sin is when we fail in the purpose of our existence- to be a perfect representation of God in the earth.

There is also the concept of 'trespassing' that is linked to sin. In fact, there are many ways of defining sin in Old Testament Hebrew (sin was made greatly sensitized) - with only a handfull in the NT. Every willful transgression is an act of rebellion .

There are sins of commission and sins of omission. There were 365 'don'ts' (neg) in the Old Testament and 248 'do's' (pos) with 613 laws in all. The Law demands absolute righteousness, in word and deed, in thought and intention, in all obedience, love, and devotion. When sin is found it requires payment of the debt, not only to "the uttermost farthing," but as McClintock says- in coin in which there is no trace of alloy.

As I mentioned on the other thread, the great challenge is the practical application of the known will of God to the endlessly diversified and complicated events and circumstances of daily life. Right and wrong often overlap, in that we cannot tell whether we ought to show mercy or execute a sentence. We are confounded by passages that tell us to judge not that we be not judged and others that require us put away from us a wicked person. We are pressed upon by conscience to uphold convictions when they conflict with a fellow believer and wot not whether to part company or remain in league. Case in point, Paul and Barnabas and the issue of John Mark. Errors of judgment lead to errors in action; error begets error.

Often when the smoke clears there is but one certainty- that I am [u]not[/u] perfect. If I had perfect knowledge, I would be none the better, as I had not the perfect wisdom to apply that knowledge. And if I had perfect wisdom I had not the power to make effectual the application. I come away with one certainty- I am [u]not[/u] perfect.

If I find myself in such a state that I am walking in what I believe to be the perfect will of God with no real desire to sin- not even as much a the draw of temptation- I am assured that it is the Holy Spirit propping me up. If I know such a state for an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year, or a decade I must know in my heart it is the underpinning and [i]hedge[/i] of the Holy Spirit. If God would remove the hedge- I had seen myself afresh as I am.

Therefore, the challenge in times of victory is to be honest about my state lest I get puffed up and God resist me. If I begin to look upon myself as if I were my own cause of holiness I will surely stumble. If I look with disdain upon sinners in need of repentance, having forgotten that I was once purged from my own sins- God will surely resist me. The best claim I ought to make is that there are no present [i]controversies[/i] between me and God. If there are no controversies and my conscience lay quiet- I must rightly define my estate. From this will I deduce that I am perfect- even as Christ? Nay verily! All it means is that there are no present controversies between me and God. To call this perfection is, to me, the grossest of over-exaggerations and will almost certainly incline me to pride, which, will bring destruction and a fall.

If we will walk in [i]humility[/i] in the times of victory we will have victory- there is no other way. God resists the proud and you cannot walk in victory in your own power.

Robert Wurtz II

 2007/6/23 22:02Profile

Joined: 2007/4/17
Posts: 2

 Re: Exposing Bad Exposition: Answering Opposition to True Holiness

dear breathern...and sisteren (lol is that a word?)

i have read some good arguments for entire sanctification on this forum and some ok arguements from the opposite view... and i kinda of got sick of reading theology on this forum...cuz im under the impression that God is SIMPLE! and with that mind set this is how i come to the conlusion that entire sanctification or sinless perfection is possible...

ALL POWERFUL GOD WHO CAN DO ANYTHING! "Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked on them and said to them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
the impossiblity of living sin free!
Gods Will is for me to be Holy "1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification, for you to abstain from fornication"
me being sin free
(anthing thats call sin, including known sin, unknown sin, floating sin, thunder sin, sin i think i might have but really dont but maybe i do sin, the sin that gets stuck in between your teeth, and of course nis [nis is just sin backwards lol]) forver =] isnt that great guys.

so it just comes down to it...

do you have enough faith?

can you BELIEVE!

now time to give some shout outs!

to the fam in riverside: what up my ppl!
to the fam in texas (is that where jesse is at?): greetings my brother! and thank you for helping my brother defend the faith of old! =]
to the fam in detriot: much love for you guys but i hope that a hacker has hacked your account and its not really you saying this things but some demon possed hopes all things..really alot hopes...

and to anyone i may not personally know but are part of the redeemed! hi!

- jose

 2007/6/25 12:28Profile

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