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andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

Christ’s work on the cross is a finished work. It destroyed the power and penalty of sin. Power meaning bondage, and penalty meaning death, physical and spiritual.

1. If a man is in bondage to sin then, I would question his salvation ( and I say this with a very timid heart) for a man in bondage is a man with no hope. But a man, who truly knows of the Savoir, has a hope that “ sin will not have dominion over him” Rom 6:14, sin shall not be his master. The Christian is no longer in captivity. So when his old master calls he does not have to obey his harsh voice any more. So when sin becomes real issue in a Christian’s life, Our faith turns to our Risen Lord who destroyed sin on cross and set us free. Proverbs 24:16 For a just man fall seven times, and riseth up again. We rise up because we know we don’t have to stay on ground in bondage any longer. Christ has lead the captives out of captivity. Again in the gospels Christ says to “ pick up your cross Daily” why? so we can die daily…, for when sin comes up( which it will) , the Christian must go down to his death with Christ in identification with Him. All the time knowing victory awaits him. Our flesh and this world are corrupt and that’s what makes us groan for Christ’s return to finally be set free of our earthly bodies of sinful corruption. (ROM 8)


2. Power over physical death. Physical death is a reaction to Adams sin. The penalty for his sin. And the cross dealt with this: But Christians still die, does that mean they were not Christians? By No Means. Does that mean that the power of the cross is weak in dealing with the punishment of sin?, God forbid. Our resurrection and glorification will prove that the work on the cross was a sufficient antidote for our death. So just because a Christian sins, does not prove the work of Christ on his cross weak.


_________________
andy

 2007/6/22 12:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Now some have labored long and hard to overthrow the saints’ holy faith by exclaiming that this passage

of scripture is proof that a perfect sinless life is not possible on this green earth.



Brother, perhaps you should remove yourself from your position at sermon index then, based on Gregs view on this matter? (which is avaialable by searching the forums or google) What fellowship have you with such men? Also, beware of Andrew, Josef and Patrick as those wolves move into your neighborhood to "spare not your flock"...

Seriously bro, you seem to be making sensational comments to strengthen your position, but when questioned directly you seem to contradict yourself a bit?

Quote:
I would rather choose the latter: to believe God is able o remove all unrighteousness in my heart, mind, soul, and body. Such faith would not be beyond what the Bible says. Jesus Himself told me to be holy as He is holy



Quote:
It seems clear that from the rest of the scriptures in this epistle that he believes sin is of the devil and the Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil; that in Him there is not sin, and he who abides in Him does not sin!



Why then have you not "achieved" this sinless perfection yet, a lack of faith, are you secretly holding onto things of this world that prevent the work of the Spirit to be completed in your heart? Holding the light of this doctrine and yet not entering in, would not you be damning yourself by sinning against such great light?

I suppose the riverside fellowship is full of false converts... having sinned once after procalaimng salvation would render them all frauds then???? What are you really saying here brother?

Quote:
No, when God heals, He heals to the uttermost removing all leprosy, and when God saves He saves to the uttermost.



Again brother, what evil has beset you that you have not entered into your sinless perfection, that is being saved to the uttermost as you would correlate the two?

Quote:

I would like to encourage all those who are defenders and diligent studiers of truth to really look into this verse for themselves and that they be more noble minded like the Bereans, and to not just take carnal men’s doctrines to confine them under sin their whole lives



Brother - I am walking free from any known/willful form of sin. I have spent the last year+ in close fellowship with Josef and Patrick as well, and as much as could be said about anyone based on fruit so are they. You are trying to create a false dichotomy and clump all those who disagree with your view into the camp of "carnal christians". Anyone can look up the preaching from Detroit on youtube and see that this is laughable in light of the message preached in Detroit and the Spirit bearing witness to it.

I would like to challenge you again, on using these senstational words of yours.

1) Either you dont really believe them

or

2) You are compromising by associating with Greg, Andrew, Josef and Patrick...

I am not saying this to back you in a corner but your own words have done just that... please consider this.

In Christ - Jim



 2007/6/22 12:45









 Re: Don't cut yourselves Short.

I had asked on the other thread if it is alright to post the same post twice. It appears from this thread that it is.

I'm not posting this post below again because I think as Paul said, that I think "I'm somewhat" ... but because I know for certainty, that if we don't do "it" HIS WAY, by the Spirit and not the flesh, then we will fall short on HIS PLAN or GOAL for creating us in the First place.

HE intended us to be children of The First Born and to bear His Image - period. "As He was in this world - so are we to be" and "the things that He did, so will those who are Hearing and following The Lamb" .... BUT, if we go about to accomplish that by the flesh, we have failed HIM by our autonomous actions ... which of all things ... Paul condemned [u]the Most[/u]. Galatians, just for one.

I'll post my heart again here, as I did on that other thread. JOHN 10 & 16 - just for a Very few ........

If I could just enter my thoughts on this thread ... the word hamartia comes from hamartanō, meaning basically "to miss the mark".

"The Mark" is The Image of Christ.

We are 'be-ing' transformed into the Image.

I think the key word in God's action in our lives is just this. Be-ing formed or transformed into His Image. As He was the Image of The Father.

Our part, is to walk in the Spirit (Rom 8). That's why Paul spoke to the Galatians as he did, saying, are you so foolish, having begun in the spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh ?

And as John spoke the most of "Love" being the way to perfection, fulfilling all of the law and the Prophets and without which, we will not be saved, despite our good works or efforts to be 'sinless'.

I think, we rob ourselves of what we could be, if we center in on specific sins, rather than setting our goals and sights, as Paul did, in Phil. 3, to KNOW HIM, through 'whatever' circumstances He sends our way. Romans 8:28 is "For" 29.

IF we see that absolutely everything and every single person that comes into each of our days, is sent by GOD to refine us, and to do that Rom.8:28,29 thing to us ... and realize ... not a sparrow falls without it being His will, then we will let Him use our circumstances, those who we see each day, flat tires, smashing toes into doors, screaming neighbors, EVERYTHING through the eyes of the "all things that work for the Good" - which is to conform us into the image of Christ.

To "walk in the Spirit" as seen in the beginning of Romans 8, is just the opposite of trying to fulfill God's law in our flesh.
Walking in the Spirit, is when we die to self, self-dependence, autonomy and self effort and in total dependence on His Spirit within us & He who is the Author and Finisher of our faith -- we learn to wait on Him constantly.

Jesus had all that we have now. He emptied Himself, so to be an example. He depended on the Father to lead, work and speak through Him in everything He did, through The Spirit.

Rather than keep "self", we need to be willing to empty ourselves of ourselves and become thoroughly dependent on Him, to "hear His Voice" (Jn 10) and "follow".

We cut ourselves short of what He's trying to do in us and through us, if we get into thinking the cessation of outward sin is all that we need to do.

To be "perfect", Every 'thought' must be taken captive to the obedience of Christ.

Every thought.

That's where it all begins. Every single thought.


My favorite verses were posted by Forevidence:

Php 3:9-15 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; IF by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


Thank you!


edit note. When I clicked on Phil 3:12 on the e-sword, 12 Commentaries lit up, just on that one verse.

 2007/6/22 13:05
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

jimdied2sin wrote:
Quote:
Now some have labored long and hard to overthrow the saints’ holy faith by exclaiming that this passage

of scripture is proof that a perfect sinless life is not possible on this green earth.



Brother, perhaps you should remove yourself from your position at sermon index then, based on Gregs view on this matter? (which is avaialable by searching the forums or google) What fellowship have you with such men? Also, beware of Andrew, Josef and Patrick as those wolves move into your neighborhood to "spare not your flock"...

Seriously bro, you seem to be making sensational comments to strengthen your position, but when questioned directly you seem to contradict yourself a bit?

Quote:
I would rather choose the latter: to believe God is able o remove all unrighteousness in my heart, mind, soul, and body. Such faith would not be beyond what the Bible says. Jesus Himself told me to be holy as He is holy



Quote:
It seems clear that from the rest of the scriptures in this epistle that he believes sin is of the devil and the Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil; that in Him there is not sin, and he who abides in Him does not sin!



Why then have you not "achieved" this sinless perfection yet, a lack of faith, are you secretly holding onto things of this world that prevent the work of the Spirit to be completed in your heart? Holding the light of this doctrine and yet not entering in, would not you be damning yourself by sinning against such great light?

I suppose the riverside fellowship is full of false converts... having sinned once after procalaimng salvation would render them all frauds then???? What are you really saying here brother?

Quote:
No, when God heals, He heals to the uttermost removing all leprosy, and when God saves He saves to the uttermost.



Again brother, what evil has beset you that you have not entered into your sinless perfection, that is being saved to the uttermost as you would correlate the two?

Quote:

I would like to encourage all those who are defenders and diligent studiers of truth to really look into this verse for themselves and that they be more noble minded like the Bereans, and to not just take carnal men’s doctrines to confine them under sin their whole lives



Brother - I am walking free from any known/willful form of sin. I have spent the last year+ in close fellowship with Josef and Patrick as well, and as much as could be said about anyone based on fruit so are they. You are trying to create a false dichotomy and clump all those who disagree with your view into the camp of "carnal christians". Anyone can look up the preaching from Detroit on youtube and see that this is laughable in light of the message preached in Detroit and the Spirit bearing witness to it.

I would like to challenge you again, on using these senstational words of yours.

1) Either you dont really believe them

or

2) You are compromising by associating with Greg, Andrew, Josef and Patrick...

I am not saying this to back you in a corner but your own words have done just that... please consider this.

In Christ - Jim






Now first of all I wrote this article to refute all those who misuse this scripture in I John, not just Greg, Andrew, and Patrick.

Yes, I feel a burden to protect the flock in which God has made me an overseer in, and anybody that preaachers contrary to the true doctrine of holiness.

One can fall into carnal doctrines by listening to carnal teachings from carnal men. Even spiritual perfect Christians must always take heed and watch.

Also...

Me entering into Canaan and the promises of the God could be for variosu reasons, it could be sin and I would openly admit that if God showed me that or of any brother showed me any sin in my life.

But I should be there, and their are no excuses for it is by faith. He is able, but sometimes He makes us wait.

Many holiness people called the entire sanctification issue a 'crises experience.' This where most of our fellowship including me are at, we are looking for and longing for the day where all sin, including indwelling sin are gone and we have nothing in our hearts but love.

I dont know what is wrong with us as humans in wanting to see someone fail and fall into sin, just to prove it is not possible to live without sin.

Just like before Israel entered in the promised land, their were spies who had tasted and seen the land was good, but many other would not enter because of unbelief, so they were all detained. God made CAleb, and Joshua wait 40 years until they entered.

Perhaps the reason I have not entered into this land of holiness is because there is so much of an atmosphere of unbelief that God has not let any of us in.

God wants a bride without spot and blemish not just parts and members of His bride.


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 13:50Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

Intens4Him wrote:
I may be way off base here and have totally misunderstood what you wrote (since I'm just poking my head in) but....

Quote:

Forevidence wrote:
I believe in Jesus as my sanctification...
but that sanctification is not just theoritical but very real.



Playing the devil's advocate (bad choice of words I know, here of all places! LOL)... By what you previously wrote how can you?

Quote:
Forevidence wrote:

Have you been glorified yet?

Then you can't teach on glorification!

That is really bad logic, very absurd



(Just so you know, I believe in sanctification). My question is by what you previously wrote... If you have not been 100% sanctified yet, how can you teach on it?




I tried to use that issue of glorification as an example and I guess it did not work.

You can teach on things you have not experienced, just like glorification. You can only speculate and teach what the bible says on it. Likewise I have only seen and tasted a bit of what it must be like, but have not entered yet. But the Bible clearly thunders it from OT ot NT.


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 13:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Many holiness people called the entire sanctification issue a 'crises experience.'



I have a book by T.A. Hegre called "The Cross and Sanctification". He talks about this "crisis experience" as well. I need to go back an reread it...it's been a long time. He was the Founder of Bethany College of Missions. Leonard Ravenhill wrote a forward to his book.

 2007/6/22 14:02
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

sscott wrote:
Quote:
Many holiness people called the entire sanctification issue a 'crises experience.'



I have a book by T.A. Hegre called "The Cross and Sanctification". He talks about this "crisis experience" as well. I need to go back an reread it...it's been a long time. He was the Founder of Bethany College of Missions. Leonard Ravenhill wrote a forward to his book.



Thanks brother for that insight.


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 14:15Profile









 Re:

Giancarlo-

I am taking a break from this thread for the weekend, to much to deal with lightly, requires study and further meditiation...

I would caution you on your name calling though and painting "broad strokes" because I personally know Josef (as written in his latest article), Patrick (per personal conversation) and Greg (per posting on SI) interptret that verse differently then you do.

here are a few of your quotes:

Quote:
Now some have labored long and hard to overthrow the saints’ holy faith by exclaiming that this passage of scripture is proof that a perfect sinless life is not possible on this green earth



Quote:
This is often overlooked by those who would try to use its proceeding verse as a stumbling block for those who are on the highway of holiness.



Quote:
no matter which new ones come forth, it is plain to see that whatever might be designed by antinomians or whatever is constructed by mislead believers to make these passages say that this I Epistle of John is confining and restricting all under sin



Quote:
in the day that we are living in, we have many apostate teachers who go forth to discourage and poison the minds of sincere believers by propagating views they don’t even know where they originated from.



Quote:
They struggle with thoughts of sin and begin to form carnal doctrines to accommodate their sin and state that sin is within us and will not be removed until we die. Those who know the workings and the power of the Holy Ghost would never quench or grieve Him by saying such things.



Quote:
So many people have not come to Christ for this thorough cleansing because so called leaders out there misuse and misunderstand the scripture as in this case. Many have been deceived to think that inward and outward sin is tolerated by God.



Quote:
and to not just take carnal men’s doctrines to confine them under sin their whole lives



Indirectly you have brought up strong allogations against these men, (who preach uncompromised holiness, just not your brand of it) such as they are

1) overthrowing the saints’ holy faith
2) creating a stumbling block for those who are on the highway of holiness.
3) possible antinomians
4) apostate teachers who go forth to discourage and poison the minds of sincere believers
5) They do not the workings of power of the holy ghost
6) Misuse and misunderstand the scripture as in this case
7)propogating carnal men’s doctrines

It very clear that this is not just about an interpretation of one verse, but also the men that preach it differently then you do. The above quotes clearly show that. You really need to meditate on what you are saying. As you stated, you wouldnt come out and write such things about the dear brothers that I mentioned, but you have created sort of a quagmire here with your strong language and done just that.

Sort of if you were wearing a red shirt and I said "all those wearing red shirts are [see your comments above]", then turn to you and say... oh I wasnt talking about you.. just people who wear red shirts. poor analogy, but I hope it gets the point across.

Grace and peace to you - Jim

 2007/6/22 14:18
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
You can only speculate and teach what the bible says on it.



So your are only teaching speculations - boy, I am glad to hear that - at least now there is some hope for you ;-) I guess when you have arrived at this imaginary state of sinless perfection then you can teach on it - until then as you said it is mere speculation. Your glorification example is faulty because no one has obtained glorification is is still able to preach on - rather it is like someone preaching repentance who has not yet repented or some preaching justification who has yet to be justified.

Do you know anyone who claims to reach this point of sinlessness and claims to be on par with the glory of God? If so who?

The Bible thunders against such doctrines as sinless perfection as you teach it all throughout the old and new testaments.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2007/6/22 14:25Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Your point is excellent Jim - I guess Giancarlo will have to forbid all of the saints in Riverside from reading the Old Paths and articles written and published by men such as Greg Gordon who in his opinion are:

1) overthrowing the saints’ holy faith
2) creating a stumbling block for those who are on the highway of holiness.
3) possible antinomians
4) apostate teachers who go forth to discourage and poison the minds of sincere believers
5) They do not the workings of power of the holy ghost
6) Misuse and misunderstand the scripture as in this case
7)propogating carnal men’s doctrines


:-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o


Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2007/6/22 14:30Profile





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