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butterflies
Member



Joined: 2004/8/17
Posts: 20


 Re: Women

I know Paul says that women should not have authority over the man, because man was made first. Man is the head of the woman as Christ is head of the church. I believe feminism is one of satan's ploys to destroy the foundation of marriage and of the family. Think about it and you'll understand.

Us women are not to be like robot's mind you, but we are to revere our husbands and honor them as we would honor Jesus Christ I believe. I will have to think more on this and see what the Holy Spirit shows me.


_________________
Jennifer

 2004/8/19 14:30Profile









 Re:

I'd like to encourage all of you to read 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 and versus 34-36. I think most people stop reading way to soon. They read 34 and 35 where it says.

Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are comanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

But lets not stop reading there, those two versus make millions of men very happy to read. To them it seems as though God is a respecter of persons, which the Bible cleraly says he is not. And that they can control women, they think submission, means they have total control over the woman, which is indeed, ignorant on their part. HOWEVER, keep reading.

Verse 36 - What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

Now lets look at this completely. Paul writes these things, that women should not do, which is most likely, exacdtly what the Corinthains wanted, or what they had wrote to him in a letter, which he responds to. Paul in other occasionis in his letters, has to address those things in which the churches were doing wrong, and in which they had asked him. So the first two versus there, he is most likely stating, how they feel about it. BUT he answers them, and is saying basically What?!? Do you think you (men) are the only ones the Word of God came to?

He is clearly saying Jesus did not come just for men. He is saying Jesus came for a woman, as much as he came for a man. There might be seperate roles men and woman play in the family unit. But in the church, there is no such thing. Paul makes that very clear in that verse.

For those who want to ignore the rest of what Paul wrote concering women in the church, I ask how come you dont take those two versus and apply it TOTALLY. If you think that verse 36 does not answer the question about women, then look at where verse 34 mentions the law. Which from what the Bible tells me, I no longer live under the old law anyways. I no longer have to offer burnt sacrifices, I am allowed to eat any meat. None of the old law, pertains to those who are in Christ Jesus. God is no respecter of persons.

So hopefully you can now take the entire scripture that is found in, and read verse 36 with it, and realize that Paul did not ever say that a woman can n ot hold the same offices in the church as a man.

God Bless!
Mitch

 2004/9/7 10:05









 Re:

Firstly i would like to apologize for a late reply but i am new to this site. This topic has been really edifying from what i have read so far and all done in a real spirit of love, Praise God. I thank God for brothers and sisters like you all. I have just had a truely disturbing experience on this very topic i need to share. I just registered with another forum site and happened to mention i was invited back on my course as a tutor. However what i failed to mention was that as a tutor we don't teach but support new students and just be there for them. I introduced myself and this was my reply:
"Geraldine,

Welcome to the board!

Just one little piont that you obviously don't know yet; as a woman you are not allowed to teach the things of God, so being a tutor is not an option for you. But seeing as you have a bundle of work arriving soon I suspect you won't have time anyway. I hope that goes well too."

My reply was:
Thank you all for your replies. To put your mind's at ease as i don't like to offend and if i have then i do apologize, but as a tuotor on this particular course we don't teach but we give support, guidence and any help new students might need. On the other hand they do have women that teach in many different areas such as prejudice, world issuses, how to study Gods word effectivly, church history all of which doesn't pose a problem for me personally.
I read the rules before i came on this site and was WELL aware of what you believe so i am sorry if i have caused anyone any offence.
I came on this site because i belived i could recieve sound doctrine and great fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ, which i look forward to.
My in laws i must add are both pastors (inc. my mother in law) and missionaries and have a succesfull ministry in Africa which includes an orphanage. They are BOTH representatives for the whole of Europe for a worldwide ministry based in America. My brother in law (from Africa) is also my pastor! My point is wether or not i agree to women teaching or even if i don't have a choice, i respect my mother in law and will sit through a service if she is preaching and let the Good Lord decide on the day of judgement.
I am sorry to have caused you offence,
In his love,
Geraldine

And the moderators reply shocked me:
Moderators reply:
"Geraldine,
The issue is not really to do with whether anyone else is offended here. The issue is 'is God offended?' The Lord does not have to 'decide on Judgement Day', He has already stated what the Truth is. We are expected to seek out The Truth and move into it. If we are not, over a period of time, conformed to The Truth we will not be, ultimately, saved, we will not die in Christ Jesus, who IS The Truth.

I very much doubt if you have offended anyone here, and even if you did they would forgive you, and forget it. But to go on wilfully rejecting The Truth, and walking in error, is a gross offence to Christ. That makes Him weep.

When you read the rules (well done!) you were not just looking at 'what we believe', but a statement that only The Truth is good enough here. Offending Christ is not allowed here. I also know couples who were missionaries and women who speak/preach in churches. But they would not do it in any assembly where I was an elder, and if I was around when your mother in law dared to get out of place she would be publicly rebuked and put back in it. If she would not accept The Truth she would be told to leave the fellowship. Rebellion against Him who is The Truth is downright wickedness, and not something to be passed over, or even less, honoured."


Regardless of what we believe on this subject i pray that as brothers and sisters we can all still come together the way you all do on this site!
I'm not sure why but since recieving the above post from this other un-named forum site my spirit feels disturbed, why is that?
I want to do whats right by God and if that means i can't teach then so be it although i have no firm conclusion as of yet.
sorry to go on but i really needed to get this off my chest and maybe someone can tell me if im right to feel disturbed by what this brother wrote. What do you think?
In his love, Geraldine.



 2004/10/3 12:39
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
if I was around when your mother in law dared to get out of place she would be publicly rebuked and put back in it.


Hi Geraldine
You will have seen that this is a long and honourable thread, and that folks don't always have exactly the same picture of things.

Of all that you quoted the part above is the part that would disturb me most. I do believe that there is a difference between male and female and their operation in the gathered church of God. (they are lots of implications in that last sentence) However, I am sure that women are to be 'given their place' rather than 'put back in it'. This phrase distresses me more than I can express. There are areas within the life of a gathered church which I do believe God has sectioned off from the woman, but for hers and the church's safety, not because she needs to be 'put back in her place'.

This may sound strong on the basis of limited information but I doubt that anyone who genuinely has this spirit could ever really function as an elder. He may have the role/office but not the heart. The man has a unique responsibility for protection of the woman in the gathered church, and this attack is the opposite of what ought to happen. I think this is what has disturbed your spirit. You sense that this is not only unjust but that there is something destructive in it.

That's 'what I think'.

Now what do you do? You keep your spirit open to the Lord and carry on doing what you were doing. Whom the Lord loveth he disciplines... and He always does it in that order. From the security of His love comes His rebuke as necessary, but His rebuke will never appear as an attack. His Fatherly rebukes come from relationship not from not aggressive 'leaders' defending their places. If God has more to say, He will say it. His sheep recognize His voice...


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/10/3 13:08Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: women teaching

Geraldine,

all I know is that if what this moderator said was true, then Corrie Ten Boom, Amy Carmichael, Elizabeth Elliot, Nancy DeMoss, and others are going against God's will; and sinning and are not/did not go to heaven. I think we all know that isn't true.

Even in Oswald Chamber's biography, he talks about how one of his bible teaching friend's wife is just a good of speaker - if not better than her husband.

It would be an idiotic thing to say that men should not and do not learn from women. Though, I don't think that I should be trying to teach a men's bible study. :-?

In Him, Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2004/10/3 16:57Profile
Crysddd
Member



Joined: 2004/10/4
Posts: 12


 Re: Can women preach/teach in church?

God is not schitzo and the very first evangelist in the church was a woman, Mary Magdalene. it was to her that Christ first appeared and told her to go tell the disciples he had risen... second their are twenty four apostles talked about in the new testament if you study it out twelve were women. third that scripture has been twisted by ignorant men. He said in the literal greek that a woman is not to usurp auhority over her husband not over just men in general.. but if you read the text before and after in the greek you will discover that he is talking about women adorning themselves with a meek and gentle spirit. but he also said likewise that men pray everywhere without wrath and doubting so he was talking there of everyone taking their rightfull place. the wife is to submit to her husband if he is in his proper place in his spiritual life. men who are domineering and brutish are not in that place therefore women should not submit to a fool.... fourth


Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

for anyone to argue against a women shows they are carnal and unspiritual

fifth
Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher: she was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity;

Act 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was was one of the seven; and abode with him.
Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Paul was not against women preachers or else he would not have acknowledged these daughters who prophesied..

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.


God is not against them or He would have only said men here....the list goes on..





 2004/10/4 22:11Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Paul was not against women preachers or else he would not have acknowledged these daughters who prophesied..


This actually widens the issue. The original question was 'can women preach/teach in church?' Prophecy is a different dimension. It is very clear that Paul allowed and expected women to prophesy 'in church';Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. (1Co 11:4-5 KJV)


Your Joel reference is also to prophesying rather than preaching/teaching.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/10/5 4:01Profile
Crysddd
Member



Joined: 2004/10/4
Posts: 12


 Re:

actually prophesying means to speak by divine inspiration. preaching is the lowest form of prophesying. also paul taught that God set in the church first, apostles, second prophets, third evangelist then pastors and teachers. if that is so and that is the order then why is a women allowed to hold a higher office as a prophet but not as a preacher (evangelist) or a teacher or pastor. that would not make good sense.

 2004/10/5 7:43Profile
Crysddd
Member



Joined: 2004/10/4
Posts: 12


 Re:

Quote:
This actually widens the issue. The original question was 'can women preach/teach in church?' Prophecy is a different dimension. It is very clear that Paul allowed and expected women to prophesy 'in church';Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. (1Co 11:4-5 KJV)



also in this scripture he is saying that Christ is the spiritual head of man and that the husband is the head of the wife. whaen he is talking about praying or prophesying with it covered or uncovered, both of those in the greek speak of being in rebellion to your head. Christ is mans head, if a man in the church gets up and prays or prophesies and he is in rebellion against Christ and not submitted to Christ then He dishonors Christ. So also if a wife (who is disorderly) gets up and in contention is a troublemaker and prays or prophesies in rebellion or in division from her husband (if he is in his proper spiritual place) dishonors and disgraces her head which is her husband. He was not talking about natural physical head coverings or else all women would have to wear them today in the church and those who didn't would be in sin. we know that is not true because by grace are we saved through faith and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God. not of works lest we should boast. Paul was the greatest proponent of that day of not working for salvation by being circumsised or by observing jewish customs. even to the point of having conflicts with James and Peter, he would not then turn around and tell the churches that they then must conform to jewish customs in the church.

in Christ there is neither male nor female, but we are all Christ. when we preach or teach it should be the Spirit of God speaking and not us. the Spirit of God will use whatever and whomever he can to testify of Jesus Christ. A man who puts himself above the Spirit of God is just as bad as a women who is contentious. the key is that it is God speaking and we need not get tripped up over who the person is through whom he is speaking. if we become judges with partial thoughts then according to james we have sinned. the anointing we have recieved from him teaches us all things, that is who is speaking by the Spirit of God and who is not. that is the measure that we are to use to judge whether male or female. for as many as are led by the Spirit of God they are the sons of God (male or female).

God bless and thanks for the wonderful discusssion :-)

 2004/10/5 8:02Profile
theevangelist
Member



Joined: 2003/8/1
Posts: 82
United States Of America

 Re:

Crysddd says:

Quote:
actually prophesying means to speak by divine inspiration. preaching is the lowest form of prophesying. also paul taught that God set in the church first, apostles, second prophets, third evangelist then pastors and teachers. if that is so and that is the order then why is a women allowed to hold a higher office as a prophet but not as a preacher (evangelist) or a teacher or pastor. that would not make good sense.



I agree completely. First of all, if some men aren't doing the job, then God has to raise somebody up who will. I personally know some women who are preaching the Gospel. Second, Christ said in the "Great Commission" to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature." He doesn't say "Men, go ye into all the world..." does he? Thirdly, God's Word says he is "no respector of persons". And fourth of all, remember Phillip the Evangelist? He had four daughters "which did prophesy".(Acts 21:9) The word "prophesy" comes from the Greek word "prophetousi" which means to "speak under the divine illumination of the Holy Spirit". You could very well say, "Preaching under the Power and Divine knowledge of the Spirit".

The Evangelist

 2004/10/5 10:21Profile





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