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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 The difference between Pentecost and Corinth

Greetings Dear saints in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Reconciled to the Father. AMEN.

Bro Corey
it seems to me the difference between Pentecost and Corinth was that at Pentecost, the believers were operating out of One Spirit and one Mind as One Body and at Corinth, carnality had entered the Church and the believers were now operating out of a spirit of self-aggrandizement. The gift of tongues which they had was legitimate but they were involved in something of a spiritual voyeurism, showing off. Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than they did meaning the nature of the tongues was the same.

Some have argued that such gifts are no longer necessary but this is a wrong premise. The word speaks about God sending people to speak to the Jews in foreign tongues and we saw that at pentecost. This was to the Jew first and so it follows that such signs would be needed also among gentiles after all Paul was sent to the gentiles and performed some signs among them.

i agree that there are those who have a counterfeit gift or operate carnally and have the True Gift and to discern we must test the spirits. Those which agree that Christ came in the flesh are of God and those that don't are of the devil.

The gifts, 5-fold ministry and all that was at the beginning of the Church still applies to us today and perhaps even more so because we are at the end of the age.

Grace and Peace to you all. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/6/15 19:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Did I miss something here, Bro Corey? I thought you believed all modern use of "tongues" was wrong, and "gibberish"? But now you seem to be agreeing that it is a "mature language"!

I think that it can take a while for a person to get used to this gift. Not so much that the language isn't "mature" but the person is hesitant or fearful (as I was at first), or doesn't seem to have the faith at first to "flow" fluently.

In another thread on this subject I mentioned an example of an English person speaking fluent Welsh. After the meeting some folk came up to her and started talking Welsh to her and were really confused when she didn't understand them!

An example of a "sign to unbelievers"



My beef isn't against the Holy Ghost - if He enables people of different nationalities and languages to understand one another, Hallelujah! He's made understanding to flourish between otherwise confused people.

I just don't buy glossolalia - that makes no sense to anyone but the hearer.

 2007/6/15 23:26









 Re: The difference between Pentecost and Corinth

IRONMAN said

Quote:
The gift of tongues which they had was legitimate but they were involved in something of a spiritual voyeurism, showing off. Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than they did meaning the nature of the tongues was the same.



So you're saying the Holy Ghost can, has, and will descend and lend His power to carnal, degenerate men and women living in pride, lascivisciousness, and sin like the Church at Corinth? Will the Holy Ghost allow himself to be used in a sinful manner by sinful people? For fun?

Noah had to release two birds from the Ark... because the raven didn't come back - it probably landed on a rotting corpse and pecked away. The Dove returned because it couldn't find a clean (kosher) place to land. Same thing with the Holy Ghost that "descended like a dove" on Jesus at His baptism.

And 5-fold what? Is that like a modern catchphrase... like an acronym or something? I don't understand your Churchianese.

 2007/6/15 23:39
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
GrannieAnnie wrote:
I just wanted to reply back to Logic's post to me, though you answered that ... but I'd just like to add for Logic, that unless one has been used in "any" of the gifts ... especially the vocal ones, which are most of them ... they would have no idea how they operate through a mere human who is not 'accustomed' to being used that way by GOD.

Thanks y'all.

I have been used in the Word of Wisdom, Healing, and Gift of Faith and I have close friends that have been used in others.

I know how the Spirit works and moves. I know that one can not plan, choose, initiate, or will
to be used in any of them, even toungues.

One does not genuinly speek/pray in toungs daily just as one does not speak Words of Wisom or Knowlege daily.

Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
I think that it can take a while for a person to get used to this gift. Not so much that the language isn't "mature" but the person is hesitant or fearful (as I was at first), or doesn't seem to have the faith at first to "flow" fluently.


One wouldn't be hesitant or fearful when overwhelmed with the Holy Spirit?

Furthermore, it's not about your "faith at first to "flow" fluently" because the one being used for the purpose of the toungue isn't thinking of his/her self to hesitate or fear.

Do not think of the "Baptism of the Spirit" as a one time thing, one is baptised/overwhelmed with the Spirit every time one is "filled", for that is wht it means, to be overflowing.

The is no humin effort in any of the Gifts.

 2007/6/16 0:10Profile
Sealed
Member



Joined: 2006/5/13
Posts: 22
Milwaukee WI

 Re:

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

The word for "perfect" here actually means completed. Therefore either the knowledge and prophecy of the bible had not ceased when Revelation was completed and we are missing 1900 years worth of knowledge and prophecy that is critically important, or tongues ceased 1900 years ago along with Bible knowledge and prophecy. I think the latter is most likely.

8 ..."if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away ; if there are tongues, they will cease ; if there is knowledge, it will be done away ."

Those who claim that speaking in tongues is still operable, must also believe that so is Bible Prophecy and knowledge because that scripture says these things will cease all at once. If that is the case then why hasn't the Bible been constantly updated for these 1900 years to include these new doctrines and prophecies?

If the Bible is complete, then tongues have ceased because Paul told us that when the partial Biblical knowledge and prophecy was completed, tongues, prophecy and knowledge would all be done away.

9-10 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Do we have a complete Bible or not? If we have had one for 1900 years, then you must conclude that Bible knowledge, prophecy, and the gift of tongues had been done away with when Revelation was completed at that time. If tongues is still operable however, you must conclude that there are still critical Biblical books yet to be written. If that is the case, perhaps we are missing a key component of the gospel.

SealedEternal

 2007/6/16 0:14Profile
intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

Quote:
by Sealed on 2007/6/16 15:14:46

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

The word for "perfect" here actually means completed. Therefore either the knowledge and prophecy of the bible had not ceased when Revelation was completed and we are missing 1900 years worth of knowledge and prophecy that is critically important, or tongues ceased 1900 years ago along with Bible knowledge and prophecy. I think the latter is most likely.

8 ..."if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away ; if there are tongues, they will cease ; if there is knowledge, it will be done away ."

Those who claim that speaking in tongues is still operable, must also believe that so is Bible Prophecy and knowledge because that scripture says these things will cease all at once. If that is the case then why hasn't the Bible been constantly updated for these 1900 years to include these new doctrines and prophecies?

If the Bible is complete, then tongues have ceased because Paul told us that when the partial Biblical knowledge and prophecy was completed, tongues, prophecy and knowledge would all be done away.

9-10 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Do we have a complete Bible or not? If we have had one for 1900 years, then you must conclude that Bible knowledge, prophecy, and the gift of tongues had been done away with when Revelation was completed at that time. If tongues is still operable however, you must conclude that there are still critical Biblical books yet to be written. If that is the case, perhaps we are missing a key component of the gospel.

SealedEternal



You're suggesting that Scriptural Inspiration and the operation of the Spiritual Gifts are one and the same. This is simply not logical.

First of all, let me point out a sermon by John Piper where he addresses the issue by reviewing the views of two prominent scholars, Richard Gaffin (cessationist) and Wayne Grudem (continualist):

[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2004/186_Using_Our_Gifts_in_Proportion_to_Our_Faith__Part_1/]Using Our Gifts in Proportion to Our Faith, Part 1[/url]

([i]*Note ~ URL adjusted by moderator[/i])

I'm sure that if asked, most continualists - myself included - would have agreed with Grudem and Piper that what they experience (whether they want to call it "Word of Knowledge", "Gift of Prophecy" or simply "Hearing God's voice") was

Quote:
(From the above sermon:)
"that New Testament prophecy is not inspired in the same way Scripture is, and is not inerrant. Rather, it is a human report of something that God has brought spontaneously to mind. It is different from teaching in that teaching is based on a written text of Scripture, while prophecy is based on the immediate impression that God is directing our thoughts to information that we would not otherwise have known or spoken."



The main cessationist argument against prophecy today is that if God truly does speak to people, then that would have to count as a revelation on a par with scripture, would have to be written down and added to the Canon. The problem with the concept of the New Testament Gift Prophecy and Scriptural Inspiration being one and the same is that it of course limits the gift to only eight people in post-resurrection history:
Matthew
Mark
Luke
Peter
Paul
John
James
Jude.
Yet throughout the NT, we find that prophecy is operated by numerous people throughout the churches e.g. Corinth, where the gift and others - real and counterfeit - was operated excessively without discernment or moderation to the point that the Apostle Paul had to intervene and establish a structure for orderly worship.

If the Gift of Prophecy and Scriptural Revelation are the same and required documentation, then where is it?

Surely the NT pastors would have had scribes to record what was said, then have it copied and distributed. Furthermore, if God saw it as being necessary and important for the whole body of Christ, you would think that He would ensure the same measure to preserve it throughout history as is the case with the rest of scripture.
Of course, unless they're buried under a pile of ruins somewhere waiting for archaelogists to dig up (doubtful), but of course this is not so.

I doubt that any sincere Charismatic/Pentacostal/Continualist would ever dare regard what they describe as equal, an addition or a replacement to what is already contained with scripture. Of course, this phenomenon is subject to discernment with the innerant, infallible and inspired Scripture as the yardstick. Anyone that does claim to have any insight that should act as an addition or replacement to what is within scripture obviously is not acting under the Holy Spirit.

With that said, you're probably asking "but is it for today, or did it stop in the first century? Does God still need to speak to people, even when the foundations have already been laid down with the completion of scripture?" The proof-text used by those who believe in cessation is usually 1 Corinthians 13:

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

From this we can obviously gather that:
1) If love is not the driving force behind faith and the gift of prophecy, then it's operation will be in vain
and
2) it is temporary until the advent of the "perfect".
Now, what is this perfection? Some will say that it is the completion of the scriptural canon, and while the Bible certainly does have without a doubt the attributes of perfection, if we examine verses 10-13 in context the reference is towards believers, us.

In addition, this description of prophecy, the spiritual gifts and their purposes for the church should be considered alongside Ephesians 4:11-16 (which was penned by the same author of 1 Corinthians 13):
11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

Read this passage and consider the following:
1. Is there still a need for the equipping (discipleship) of the saints?
2. Has the Body of Christ fully come towards a perfect unity and common understanding of the faith?
3. Is the church - as it is now - susceptible to false teachings, inconsistent doctrine, man-made viewpoints and deceit (both internal and external)?
The answer, especially for those keeping a watchful eye on the wider Body of Christ should be obvious to all three. If we aren't perfectly united in the faith, and the purpose of the gifts as detailed in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12-14 are to bring us to such unity, then how can anyone say these gifts are no longer operative without making a claim that we are perfectly united when we really aren't?

Nowhere in the NT does it say that the spiritual gifts which are intended to be for the edification of the church are to also be the source of Her teaching and doctrine.


Ben


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2007/6/16 3:21Profile









 Re:

Hi all

I had almost given up on this thread, having said maybe enough!

However, recent posts have brought a new thought...

Much of the New Testament, consists of interpreting and explaining the Old in the light of the Revelation of Christ (Hebrews 1:1)

If the cessationist position is right, there should not have been [i][u]any[/u][/i] prophecy at all after the OLD Testament canon was complete!

Yet New Testament believers clearly moved in this gift, (Agabus? Phillip's daughters?), as well as tongues.

So most true prophecy, from New Testament times onwards, must consist of explaining, applying and exhorting on the basis of Old Testament!

Does that mean the New wasn't inspired? :-?

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/6/16 15:16
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1099
Germany NRW

 Re: Speaking in tongues

Cessationists often quote

1.Cor 13:8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears

If prophecies and tongues ceased, knowlegde must cease, too!?

narrowpath

 2007/6/16 16:56Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Has Perfection Come, is He in you? John 14:17-20 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

The Holy Spirit is come and is in us forever. Christ is Come and is in us forever. "I am in my Father and you are in me, and I in you."

Christ never spoke in tongues, but He spoke all languages and spoke in parables for those that could not hear the truth and understand, no ears to hear. He is come in the flesh of men and His understanding is perfect and is being revealed by the Holy Spirit to every believer, in understanding. 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist

Again, has He come in your flesh, being the temple of the Holy Spirit and the dwelling place of Christ and the Father. Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

What are His words? Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jhn 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting

Believe on Him. All things become dim when He is the forefront of the believers life. That is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/6/16 17:42Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Corey
greetings in Jesus' Name by whose Blood we are Justified. AMEN.

Quote:
So you're saying the Holy Ghost can, has, and will descend and lend His power to carnal, degenerate men and women living in pride, lascivisciousness, and sin like the Church at Corinth? Will the Holy Ghost allow himself to be used in a sinful manner by sinful people? For fun?



has the Holy Ghost not descened on you and me in spite of our own carnality, pride, lasciviousness and degeneracy? Has He not come to undo all these works of the devil which have had us bound all our lives? i will not lie to you, i was yet in my sin when He came. Were you free from all those things when He fell on you that you? Dear brother it seems to me that if Holy Ghost tarried until we were free from such He would not come because apart from Him we can't be freed from these things. And yes we can abuse Him and grieve Him and quench Him. Remember those which Christ said He would reject as workers of iniquity? did they not do miracles in His name, not the enemy's name and power but His own power? they did it for their own selfish ambitions so yes it is possible to so do but God is not mocked and such will be exposed and cast into the fire! i can confess that in times past in my own pride i have misused the gifts given to me, have you not also done the same at some point in your walk with Christ? At Corinth, clearly Paul had to rebuke the believers for this abuse. No doubt there may have been some who were false but the letter is addressed to the saints at Corinth, carnal as some of them were. In it we ought to see the Mercy of God which desires that none perish but all come to Eternal Life. Let us not distance ourselves from these saints by failing to acknowledge our own carnality sometimes which must be dealt with!

Quote:
Noah had to release two birds from the Ark... because the raven didn't come back - it probably landed on a rotting corpse and pecked away. The Dove returned because it couldn't find a clean (kosher) place to land. Same thing with the Holy Ghost that "descended like a dove" on Jesus at His baptism.



bro Corey thank you for bringing this up. Yes the Dove came upon Jesus because He WAS a clean place to land however Holy Ghost didn't fall as a dove on the 120 at Pentecost, He fell as tongues of fire. This means that He came to Purge and Cleanse the iniquity which was there because the saints could not have so done without Him. Jesus was already perfect, we are yet being perfected hence the necessity for the conviction of sin and purging of it from us by fire! did He descend on you as a Dove or as Fire?Were you already perfect or is He yet perfecting you? i was not perfect and am yet being perfected, a life of sin before salvation needs much purging which takes time but i bless God for His bearing with me!

Quote:
And 5-fold what? Is that like a modern catchphrase... like an acronym or something? I don't understand your Churchianese.



the 5 fold ministry being of Apostles, Prophets, Preachers, Teachers and Evangelists. i was not aware you didn't know what that meant and i didn't mean to confuse you in any way, my apologies bro. i hope that clears things up a bit.

Grace and Peace be yours in Jesus Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/6/16 18:32Profile





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