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dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

As to Sampson I only see self will and a whole lot of other dynamics that I won't list here.

As for the issue of tongues or glōssa you don't have ears to hear because you've already settled the issue. Unfortunately so have I. So in christian love we both will now part on this subject but we can always embrace on the topic of Jesus Christ, His birth, His Life, His death, His ressurection, and I would like to say His life or at least some aspects of His present life and evidence there of.


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D.Miller

 2007/6/13 5:44Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

I have spoken in tongues when i was very young in faith and that happend after i was born again.Later on i became sceptical about the authenticity of the gift, whether is was of God or a counterfeit gift.

To this day i cannot say with assurance where it came from, i remember one nite all alone i was praying somewhere outside,honestly desering the 'baptisme with the Holy Spirit' and the gift of speaking in tongues. No one put hands on me, i was not influence from anybody, i was aware of the counterfeit tongues and dint wanted to be deceived but i was deadly cincere in my request.
As a result of the fervent prayers at last i opened my mouth to speak out syllables that i had no idea, i just undurdened my heart.

Little by little i began to put emphases of the gift more then the grace and love of God, so i became doubtful whether this gift was building up my soul or 'tearing it down'.

My scepticism increased especially when i frenquented the Plymouth Brethren, i became very doubtful to the origin of the gift and i began to speak in tongues very ralely till i gave it up. It has been years that i dont speak anymore in tongues.
Bearing fruits, being chrislike, and doing the will of God is more important to me than having gifts but the gifts of the Spirit are very needful for the building up of the body of Christ.

Now i dont have any doubt as to my authentic conversion and being born again,that was a radical experiece. Is was The most beautiful day of my life when Jesus forgave my sins and took my burden away and gave me new life, but the question is raised , is it possible for a true child of God to be deceived when he sincerly and earnestly desires a spiritual gift?
Was i deveived by a conterfeit experience or was i just sceptical of a genuine gift? These are questions that demand spiritual discerment, the knowledge of the bible is not enough.

I have tasted the spirits and i have seen much of the counterfeit in charismatic churches and i'm sure that evil spirits counterfeit often the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and many fall victimes of the devil by opening their hearts to all kinds of unholy and deceiving experiences.Intresting enough never fell down or lost 'conscience' when somebody put hands over me, even though they tried hard to 'bless' me.Often i would feel a resistence in my heart, it felt like some ouside power wanted to conquer me.Thanks God He gave me spiritual discerments and in one thing i was sure, i knew the sweet and meek voice of my Shepherd, it was geltle and it spoke peace to my heart, and not like the wild and aggressive 'fire' that wanted to conquer by force my heart.

I still believe in all the gifts of the Spirit, divers tongues are included (be it praying in the spirit in tongues - for your personal edification, or speaking foreign languages or speaking divers tongues in the church but interpreted so that the message could be intelligible and edifying)and if the Spirit wills and gives me such a gift i will readily receive it, or if what i received years ago be anauthentic gift then i have to stirr it up as He enables and empowers.

My experiences i think have tought be something.I have now a more balanced view of the spiritual gifts but i want always to seek first of all the greatest of gifts LOVE without each all others avail nothing.









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Redi

 2007/6/13 6:30Profile
redeemedone
Member



Joined: 2006/12/2
Posts: 10
Malawi- Central Africa

 Re:

Hey everybody, i had to download the whole thread in pdf first for me to keep track with whats happening. I think it would have been helpful if we all read the article by Zacc Poonen. to me it sheds light on a lot of areas, not to mention sufficient scripture backing. so let me recommend all those that have not read it to do so NOW!. its long but its worth it.


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Lusayo Mhango

 2007/6/13 6:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Corey said:
...no one has yet explained why the tongues in Acts, Chapter 2, is so remarkably different than that in II Corinthians.

That's because you haven't been able to [i]"hear"[/i] the explanations!

The real puzzle to me is [i][u]why[/u][/i] have you convinced yourself that this [i][u]has[/u][/i] to be very different from today's use of this gift? I suppose it's because you are determined to "prove" that today's use is demonic or merely human. So, because you dare not deny the truth of Scripture, you are compelled to persuade yourself that the Pentecost gift in Acts was different - it "has" to be - to prove your utterly fixed conclusion that today's gift of tongues isn't of God.

You appeal to reason and logic, yet you are being unreasonable and illogical in the extreme, as well as misusing the Word.

To try yet again to explain: There [i]is[/i] probably some difference between the particular kind of tongues/glossolalia exercised at Pentecost and the [i]common[/i] uses of the gift today. Pentecost was an unusual occasion, so an unusual form of the gift was needed! But this is merely part of the range of "divers kinds of tongues": Different languages, different modes of operation, different practical purposes.

Why do you insist on dividing the Spirit?

As Paul said in 1Corinthians 12:
[i][color=000099]4 There are diversities of gifts, but fthe same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.[/color][/i]

...Tongues can be used as a "sign" to unbelievers (as at Pentecost), it can also be prayer, prophecy, proclamation or praise and worship. Often the speaker himself knows which it is, even when he doesn't understand the meaning of the words.

The gift can be used in public or in private. It may be one of many, many languages, known or unknown, interpreted or not interpreted.

All are part of the range of right uses of this same gift.

Of course the wrong uses exist, of course the human and demonic counterfeit exists, no-one is denying that!

Therefore, this gift should be exercised, not randomly but in obedience to the Holy Spirit, "decently and in order", as Paul exhorted).

And above all, in love.


...I just noticed this from your mail signature:

Quote:
..."The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the spirit." (JOHN 3:8)

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (I COR 2:14)

Bro Corey, I do believe you are born of the Spirit, but where is the spiritual [i]discernment[/i] that this verse speaks of???? Why do you have such a huge mental and spiritual blockage in this matter?

And why do you also ignore the advice of Peter that you quoted?

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

Prejudice puts the mind in a straitjacket, and cripples the spirit.

I really am trying to be helpful, but when you refuse to listen...

Yours in Him

Jeannette

 2007/6/13 6:43









 Re:

Quote:

elected wrote:
I have spoken in tongues when i was very young in faith and that happend after i was born again.Later on i became sceptical about the authenticity of the gift, whether is was of God or a counterfeit gift...


...I have tasted the spirits and i have seen much of the counterfeit in charismatic churches and i'm sure that evil spirits counterfeit often the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and many fall victimes of the devil by opening their hearts to all kinds of unholy and deceiving experiences.Intresting enough never fall down i lost 'conscience' when somebody put hands over me, even though they tried hard to 'bless' me.Often i would feel a resistence in my heart, it felt like some ouside power wanted to conquer me.Thanks God He gave me spiritual discerments and i thing was sure i knew the sweet and meek voice of my Shepherd, it was geltle ans spoke peace to my heart, and not like the wild and aggressive 'fire' that wanted to conquer by force my heart.

I still believe in all the gifts of the Spirit, tongues are included and if the Spirit wills and gives me such a gift i will readily receive and speak it as He empowers.My experiences i think have tought be something.I have now a more balanced view of the spiritual gifts but i want always to seek first of all the greatest of gifts LOVE without each all others avail nothing.

AMEN!

Thank you for this. Maybe you should send a copy of this testimony to Coolcap in a pm? The poor chap has peobably fled in confusion at our fierce debate on the subject! It's so sad that this has happened, though most of the debating has been in love, I believe.

Maybe we all go through times of confusion re spiritual especially. Satan sees to it, by poroducing numerous excesses and counterfeits. Or tempting to pride in our giftings.

The opposite temptation is to close one's mind to all and any superntural occurrence, as Corey seems to have done. I can understand and sympathise, though that doesn't stop me trying to persuade him to come out of his shell and "taste and see that the Lord is good"!

I'm glad you resisted the "falling down" thing, most of it is not of God and is more akin to hypnotism.

It took me a long time to realise that, and it even happened to me once or twice, though the Lord protected me from serious spiritual harm.

Krispy says he was very involved with the counterfeit at one time, but wasn't put off the real thing after God brought him out of deception.

I believe (from my own struggles with confusion and deception) that the Lord does one of two things if our hearts are basically right.

Either He protects us and warns us when we are getting into the countrefeit, so that we avoid it; OR He allows us to get involved in it but still protects us, and brings us out, when the time is right, with no lasting harm.

I've experienced both, as has Krispy, which is why I think hearing his experiences might be helpful. (I think he said something about it in this thread?)

I believe God's purpose, even sometimes allowing us to be deceived for a season, is usually to teach us discernment and to lean hard on Him.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/6/13 7:09
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

Quote:
I believe God's purpose, even sometimes allowing us to be deceived for a season, is usually to teach us discernment and to lean hard on Him.


Helo Jeannete,
I agree with you, i have experienced the counterfeits and i learned by experience what other 'know' just as outside observers.

The counterfeits only proves that the genuine is true, otherwise why will the devil imitate something tht doesnt exist.
But more sure then our experiences is the word of God and the bible is very clear about the tongues i dont have any doubts to its exercise today by God's children.

The theory of secession is a myth that some theologians have invented.I cant even belief how is possible to belief that such a gift or other suppernatural gifts ceissed after the first century or the postapostolic period.

Some read 1Corinthians 13 as to mean that all these supernatural gifts or extraordinary gifts passed away after the bible was completed, that's total missinterpretation, verses 9-10, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.The perfect it will be in Heaven, knowledge has not ceissed ect,.

Others are more tolerant in accepting all the gifts as valuable today but they only accept one aspect of tongues that is other languages (foreign) and deny the existence of praying tongue for personal edification.May be often they come up of this kind of interpretation as an reaction to the counterfeit gifts that is so much prevailing today?

Paul on perpose mentioned at the beginning of the 1Cor 13:1
Quote:
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.



This verse gives us a clue of the diversity of tongues that is is not only human languages but heavenly languages too.
verses 27-28
Quote:
If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.



If somebody speaks to God in tongues, he speaks misteries from the spirit that only God understands and i believe these misteries are given in heavenly tongues.

Let me end with the words of Apostle, "Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts" and "So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues."



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Redi

 2007/6/13 8:12Profile









 Re:

philologos quoted Paul

Quote:
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (1Corinthians 14:5 KJVS)

For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: (1Corinthians 14:17-18 KJVS)

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. (1Corinthians 14:39-40 KJVS)



"Now brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, [b]how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.[/b] There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore [b]if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me[/b]. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, [b]seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church[/b]. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. [b]For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful[/b]. What is it then? [b]I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also[/b]. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: [b]Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue[/b]. [b]Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men... If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"[/b] (I COR 14:6-23)

Quote:
It is instructive to see the difference in spirit of the writings of these two brothers.



It is instructive to see the difference between topical and expositional teaching.

 2007/6/13 17:59
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It is instructive to see the difference between topical and expositional teaching.


My point was that the right remedy for abuse is right-use not non-use.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/6/13 18:23Profile









 Re:

LittleGift said

Quote:
Bro Corey, I do believe you are born of the Spirit, but where is the spiritual discernment that this verse speaks of???? Why do you have such a huge mental and spiritual blockage in this matter?

And why do you also ignore the advice of Peter that you quoted?

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"



I've taken Peter's advice literally. I'm praying, reading scripture, researching history, meditating on the information, asking questions, and posing objections. I'm not settling for the fanciful, superficial, utterly carnal views of God's gifts so rampant in modern churchianity.

Do I believe God made Balaam's donkey speak? Do I believe the Apostles (later including Paul) preached the Gospel and foreigners understood it in their own language? Do I believe this can still happen today?

Yes.

What I don't buy is the glossolalia gibberish mouthed by the most carnal people in the worldliest of churches. I believe this was the same thing Paul was trying to bring order to in I COR. Take it or leave it.

Quote:
Prejudice puts the mind in a straitjacket, and cripples the spirit.



"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats." (MATT 25:32)

"But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light." (I PET 2:9)

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you." (II COR 6:17)

 2007/6/13 18:26
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Corey_H wrote:
And no one has yet explained why the tongues in Acts, Chapter 2, is so remarkably different than that in II Corinthians

How are they "so remarkably different"?

 2007/6/13 18:57Profile





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