SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : speaking in tongues

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:
I see we are back to the language of 'unintelligable gibberish'. There is no indication that the languages referred to in Corinthians are either 'unintelligible' or 'gibberish'.



In Acts, every unbeliever clearly understood the Gospel in his own language - it edified the hearers.

"...every man heard them speak in his own language." (ACTS 2:6)

In I Cor, no one understands the "tongues" except an interpreter - and, uninterpreted, tongues can at best, only edify the hearer. At worst, cause mass confusion.

"...except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air... Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me." (I COR 14:9-11)

Quote:
They were not unintelligible to God and to attribute 'speaking in the Spirit' as gibberish is getting too close to attributing the work of God to demons and we know the repercussions of that.



I've seen enough demons walking around in human skin, carrying bibles, speaking in "tongues", and prophesying signs and wonders - holding fast the masses under their sway - to know I'm very, very blessed to not walk among them.

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (REV 18:4)

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh recieveth; and that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened... Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be that go thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits..." (MATT 7:7-16)

What are the fruits? Speaking in tongues? Prophesying? Signs and wonders?

Or loving and caring for the widows, the single mothers, the fatherless, the poor, the disadvantaged?

 2007/6/12 15:09
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What are the fruits? Speaking in tongues? Prophesying? Signs and wonders?

Or loving and caring for the widows, the single mothers, the fatherless, the poor, the disadvantaged?



Both in a true New Testament atmosphere. You cannot pit the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit against the fruit of the Spirit. It is the same Spirit. And it is highly unfair and unreasonable to cast off all who speak in tongues as flakes just because of the excesses in these areas. What a wonderful strategy of the enemy? Stigmatize the gifts of the Spirit so folk will consider themselves the more spiritual because they don't operate in them. :-?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/6/12 15:15Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1090
Germany NRW

 Re: Speaking in toungues

I recently came across an ex-charismatic who felt convinced that tongues are not from God and he asked God to withdraw the gift. He never spoke in tongues again.

I do not think this is recommendable.

With the gifts of the Holy Spirit I believe God knew that there would a counterfeit or extreme views on this subject. There are also false fruit of the Spirit. The gift of tongues and other gifts is even given to new believers, fruit takes more time to develop. It needs a well functioning healthy body of Christ to use the gifts of the spirit propperly. Then they become what they are intend to be - a powerful, supernatural gift of God to believers and unbelievers.


May I again recommend "hmmhmm" s link to Zac Poonens article on the gift of tongues. He goes through all of the references in with great detail and I sense he applies a great deal of wisdom in it.


1 Cor. 14:39: "Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues."

Philip

 2007/6/12 16:12Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Major Concern

Quote:
I recently came across an ex-charismatic who felt convinced that tongues are not from God and he asked God to withdraw the gift. He never spoke in tongues again.


I have seen this also and believe that it is very unfortunate, but what so ever is not of faith is sin.

I think that philologos wrote correctly when he made this comment: They were not unintelligible to God and to attribute 'speaking in the Spirit' as gibberish is getting too close to attributing the work of God to demons and we know the repercussions of that.
That I believe is not only wise counsil but also a warning one can take as of from the Lord.

I generally try to let love cover a multitude of sins in areas like this because when it concerns the Holy Spirit it would seem that there are so many misunderstandings as well as abuses so as to make those who aren't earnest to spiritual truth unsettled and therefore they move toward teaching which is more suited to thier mental condition.
The warning in scripture Jam 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: MUST be applied especially in our personal prejudicies.
I just wanted to add one scripture for Corey to consider

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.





_________________
D.Miller

 2007/6/12 16:49Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
That I believe is not only wise counsil but also a warning one can take as of from the Lord.



I agree with this completely. The passage from Peter comes to mind:

2 Peter 2:12-13

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, [u]speak evil of the things that they understand [i]not[/i][/u]; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
KJV

I think the context will support the warning as we ought not to speak evil of something we do not rightly understand or have accurate information about. Too quick to draw conclusions simply because something makes more sense than something else. This is not how truth is discovered. What makes the most sense is often not truth at all. This is why Solomon told us not to lean upon our own understanding. Information is not the same as revelation. Revelation is an "Ah Ha" experience from God in which we 'understand' something.

If we lean on the arm of the flesh to understand spiritual things we will get no farther than the many wise and noble who were never called to salvation. The cross is foolishness to the wise in their own eyes. If we fail to recognize this we run the risk of corrupting ourselves by our own ignorance.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/6/12 19:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Corey_H wrote:
Quote:
In I Cor, no one understands the "tongues" except an interpreter - and, uninterpreted, tongues can at best, only edify the hearer. At worst, cause mass confusion.

The [i][b]true[/b][/i] gift of tongues [i]only[/i] causes confusion if the hearer doesn't have the Holy Spirit, or is untaught in these things; or is using only his mind to try and analyse instead of ALSO using his spirit to discern.

I would think you come into the last category?

Quote:
…I've seen enough demons walking around in human skin, carrying bibles, speaking in "tongues", and prophesying signs and wonders - holding fast the masses under their sway.

Most of us probably have. That's why we also need the spiritual gift of discerning of spirits.

You sound like someone who once had food poisoning through eating fish; he then avoids fish for the rest of his life! Except that the genuine spiritual gifts are much more precious and needful than fish – especially in these days of confusion and counterfeit.

Someone called spiritual gifts, "Tools of Love". 1Corinthians 13 is in the midst of chapters 12 and 14 which deal with the right practical use of the gifts - especially tongues. Chapter 13 reminds us that even genuine spiritual gifts have to be used in love: As has already been said, it does NOT tell us that the gifts are to be rejected in favour of love!

Power without love is devilish; love without power is helpless.

You understand only too well the dangers and evils of gifts without fruit; but why can't you see that fruit without gifts causes poverty, and lack of power in the Body of Christ? It actually [i]encourages[/i] the counterfeit which you are, rightly, so opposed to. (If you neglect to look after your good and useful plants you will be knee deep in weeds, thorns and thistles in no time!)

Denying or refusing the real thing is just as much a deception as misuse of spiritual gifts or operating in demonic gifts.

Bro Corey, you seem so utterly determined to "throw the baby out with the bathwater"? It's as if you are unable even to hear what folk are saying, let alone consider it, or look at the relevant Scriptures in any way other than what you are already determined to believe.


Blessings - even the ones you don't approve of ;-)

jeannette

 2007/6/12 20:18









 Re:

Okay, so far I've been accused of 'almost' committing the "unpardonable sin" and compared with the "brute beasts" of II Peter because I question the validity of glossolalia.

Peter also said, "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ". (I PET 1:13)

And no one has yet explained why the tongues in Acts, Chapter 2, is so remarkably different than that in II Corinthians.

 2007/6/12 21:46
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Quote:
Okay, so far I've been accused of 'almost' committing the "unpardonable sin" and compared with the "brute beasts" of II Peter because I question the validity of glossolalia.



I don't believe we are directly saying...thus and so , but I do believe that in things spiritual especially in reguards to the written experiences and manifestations of God we have on record, there needs to be a real careful almost awe like approach toward those topics, a fear of God like approach. Having said that, I also have seen false tongues from a young woman who was demonically possessed while I was preaching on the streets one nite, I won't go into all the details but needless to say where there is that which is false one must conclude that there must be a true or genuine manisfestation.

As for the doctrine or teaching of 1Cor ch 12- ch 14 on the Holy Spirit what Paul does, as in most of his letters to the churches, is he educates gentiles who would be ignorant of the God of Israel and the ways of God and the messiah and he teaches them about things that most jews would know from thier upbringing. Paul was laying foundations in everything from ethics to application in the lives of people who were basically new to the Messiah and the whole concept of Jesus Christ. Also rember that Acts was written by the physician Luke who was Paul's traveling companion and most probably Acts was written as a defense for Paul when he was to be judged in Rome. I heard one brother make this comment that no one can read through the book of Acts 3 times without coming to the conclusion on the doctrine of tongues as evidence to Spirit baptism, if that's true than 1 Cor has to be a proper application to that manifestation. In Acts as has already been noted they heard in thier language because God made them to hear, if you can figure that one out than explain to me how God made a dumb donkey to speak with a mans voice and rebuke a greedy mad prophet. Some things are just best left to faith, God's word says it and I believe it.

Just as an aside, in the OT Sampson didn't use the gift of God to the right and proper uses either, so it's no wonder many in the church misuse the things of God.


_________________
D.Miller

 2007/6/12 23:36Profile









 Re:

To clarify: I am not speaking against "the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (ROM 8:26)

dohzman said

Quote:
I heard one brother make this comment that no one can read through the book of Acts 3 times without coming to the conclusion on the doctrine of tongues as evidence to Spirit baptism, if that's true than 1 Cor has to be a proper application to that manifestation.



"Evidence to Spirit baptism", eh?

"Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." (MATT 4:7)

"And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation." (MARK 8:11-12)

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (MATT 24:24)

[b]"Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe." (JOHN 4:48)

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (HEB 11:1)[/b]

Quote:
In Acts as has already been noted they heard in thier language because God made them to hear, if you can figure that one out than explain to me how God made a dumb donkey to speak with a mans voice and rebuke a greedy mad prophet. Some things are just best left to faith, God's word says it and I believe it.



The point is that God [b]did[/b] give the donkey a voice and language that Balaam could understand. [b]This is the very same type of miracle that happened in Acts[/b].

Sense out of nonsense. Order from chaos.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." (I COR 14:33)

It cannot be equated to the chaotic, incomprehensible glossolalia spoken of in I COR - unless the donkey said "moo" or clucked like a chicken - which would not have stopped Balaam even if it edified (or amused) his donkey.

Quote:
Just as an aside, in the OT Sampson didn't use the gift of God to the right and proper uses either, so it's no wonder many in the church misuse the things of God.



Samson did precisely what God created him to do.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (ISAIAH 45:7)

God gave him superhuman strength to kill as many Philistines as God ordained him to kill.

"His father and mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel." (JUDGES 14:4)

God is in absolute control. There isn't so much as an quark out of place. He made it all, controls it all, softens hearts, and hardens hearts all for His own purpose and pleasure.

Samson is a timeless example of how "pride goes before a fall" and how after that fall, God will forgive and raise up those who are contrite and fear Him.

God ordained that, too.

 2007/6/13 2:43
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Paul:

Quote:
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (1Corinthians 14:5 KJVS)

For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: (1Corinthians 14:17-18 KJVS)

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. (1Corinthians 14:39-40 KJVS)




Corey_H on 2007/6/13 7:43:49:
Quote:
the chaotic, incomprehensible glossolalia spoken of in I COR




It is instructive to see the difference in spirit of the writings of these two brothers.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/6/13 4:54Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy