SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 Next Page )
PosterThread
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Understanding

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Quote:
Don't take this discussion so much to heart.



I can do no other.
Quote:
This issue is and always will be regarding the lines of authority in the church. And in the Bible, the line of authority is clear. Jesus to Husband to Wife.



Precisely.

Quote:
Or Jesus to Bishop/Pastor to the next designee, male or female.



ah ... not sure exactly what this could mean.

Quote:
It is merely a wise Bishop or Pastor that does not waste the talents of his congregation, for it is a rare Christian, male or female, that does not hear first of Jesus from his mother or grandmother. And many women have been gifted and called by the Holy Spirit.



There is no denying any of this but seems it can still be a wedge, again an assertion ... 'Don't forget', I am not trying to draw an inference but it just seems a lot of time there has to be a holding down or holding back the full force of the spiritual aspect of order.

I was attempting to draw on the greatness and inherent power that is contained in what Peter stated. In one sense you are proving precisely what I meant by having to go on and on about 'what it does not mean' ...




That's a pity, since I believe in the direct authority of the Bishop or Pastor to direct the teaching of his congregation, and using whatever tools he needs or has, male or female, to further his teaching of the congregation in church.

Delegation of teaching, even to a woman, does not dilute the authority of the person (Bishop or Pastor) who gives it, nor their responsibility to see it taught as given.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/8 6:15Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Philip, I read your article. Thankyou for posting it! While, I question a few points, certainly this one stands out as being replete with truth:

Quote:
It was not the "Sign" of "Speaking with Tongues" that converted the Jews on the Day of Pentecost, it was Peter's sermon,



We could say the same thing about many of our important values – including gender order. Those things, as important as they are in our lives, IN THEMSELVES, are not the path to salvation. They do not make us right before God, or even make us mature believers. History aught to prove that:
Many sects/denominations have constructed an admirable gender “order”, but in closer examination, we can see infighting, bitterness, lack of maturity, etc. As I’ve asked elsewhere, “Why do we Christians keep on trying to stand on a wobbly leg?

Certainly, for we women, there is no virtue in absolving ourselves from spiritual responsibilities by hiding behind what we view as proper order. God has convinced me in no uncertain terms of this sin. Even “proper order” can become an idolatrous way of avoiding the cross: WE will try to live the “right” life in our own strength. We will try to create something that works. (we hope).

Proper order – God’s way, WILL occur when members are rightly aligned under their Head: Christ. Apart from that, they are merely attempting to create a form of godliness, using scripture to support their attempts. But it won’t work! It produces all kinds of strife, competition for recognition, status, equality, dominance, etc. It all merely builds walls between people.

Quote:
"Women keep silent in the Churches. The statement is surrounded with the proper use of these gifts.



In other words, immaturity is the real problem. And THAT aught to be a paramount concern today!

I find it interesting that 1 Corinthians 13 occurs in the middle of the issues surrounding the gifts in the church. We typically extract it and use it at weddings. But in doing so, we have cut this “part” away from the body – that is, its context. It is meant to be the solution for the controversies over gifts. If we did that we wouldn’t get sidetracked by the never-resolving issue of gender roles, and we would value the greater importance of godly character. (the theme of 1 Corinthians.)

"Love never fails."

Diane




_________________
Diane

 2007/6/8 7:40Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Order

Quote:
That's a pity, since I believe in the direct authority of the Bishop or Pastor to direct the teaching of his congregation, and using whatever tools he needs or has, male or female, to further his teaching of the congregation in church.

Delegation of teaching, even to a woman, does not dilute the authority of the person (Bishop or Pastor) who gives it, nor their responsibility to see it taught as given.



Is this pragmatism? [i][b]In the Church[/b][/i] or "In Church" to use your words. I am unsure what the pity is here. What do you mean by delegation? In the place of a pastor? Before a congregation, however that congregation assembles? Is this not the whole dispute that has Paul so pinned up against a wall with accusations and insinuations? Please don't get me wrong here it is difficult to ascertain much of this problem because it keeps criss-crossing other elements that are already understood of woman who taught and gave prophecy and so forth ... I am attempting to nail this thing down to straight fundamental understanding of what Paul meant in the context he spoke of it, is it a practical matter only or is it a spiritual matter of order simultaneously? I may well be in error myself but something that continues to puzzle me is just why a proper understanding of spiritual submission is so ... fought against.

It just seems quite 'natural' spiritually speaking but even ... inherently, that there are roles defined that don't really need all this extra explanation. We do not or perhaps it is will not place our opinion to the test of what scripture demands and rather than do so gladly it is often reluctantly.

Submission and authority are so closely interwoven ... whose [i]authority[/i] is it that we are speaking of anyway? What is it we seek? Authority for ourselves, power? Or that the Lord be truly glorified? It really does come done to this ... I could but pray the messages from Stephen Kaung would be given a prayerful hearing, it sheds so much light on this amongst many, many other tremendous matters.

I am not at odds with you sister, but something is just breaking upon me collectively over all these matters of roles of ourselves as [i]Brethren[/i], 'in the church', in our marriages, in all things ... Do we not desire to get at the very roots of these things?

...[i]to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/i]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/8 10:09Profile









 Re:

raodsign Diane,

You can preach Love sister, because you've lived it. Whether the person has a TBI or M.E. or whatever - I've watched your posts over the time here or your time here and read your website and if anyone's proved a point, it's you.
I say that in all sincerity and with some neat tears.

"Love" proves itself on here. And there are a minimum of 200 verses that show that "without it" we won't be saved.

As you well said, the Love Chapter 'is' sandwiched between the two that teach on the gifts and their use. And as far as I'm concerned, You have proven yourself qualified to sandwich it on any thread you like.

From my heart - until we Meet Jesus - and see Him as He Is and are then Like Him.

With respect.
Blessing!
Annie

 2007/6/8 10:38
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Submission and authority are so closely interwoven ... whose authority is it that we are speaking of anyway?



It occurred to me that there is a multidimensional aspect to authority. Certainly, for some here their church authority figures may not know Genesis from Revelation. In the sense of spiritual authority, they have none, simply by their ignorance. Yet they ARE authorities, and there is a place for ORDER in all organizational structure. We certainly can, and must submit to them, without giving them our souls.

Then there is the authority of truth within the wider body of the church past and present. In other words there are those who HAVE authority by virtue of their scholarship, walk with God, etc. And THOSE are also ones to whom we must submit. As I pointed out before, these authorities seem to be men. I am comforted and blessed by this Godly provision. And I willingly submit - not merely because of their gender, but because of what they teach. After all, there are countless men out there who are promoting heresies too.

I realize that whatever I speak, whether from the kitchen table, the cyberspace forum, the music stand, or the pulpit must come under the scrutiny of God-given authorities. I submit, simply by letting my own preunderstanding, cultural biases, personal preferences be judged in light of their teachings. That is a hard and painful process, and includes surrender of my mind to God. And I have a long way to go.

There may be a place for “whatever the Word says to ME”, but there is a danger that that makes ME an authority in something that I do not have. (my apologies to those in women’s bible studies who practise that)

And now, I will practise what I preach and include a quote from “Introduction to Biblical Interpretation” by Dr. William Klein, Dr. Craig Blomberg, and Dr. Robert Hubert. This is one OF FOUR criteria to be used in evaluating Biblical interpretations:

“It works in the crucible of Christian experience – producing godliness, and other valid Christian qualities, and advancing God’s kingdom.”

In other words, if our particular interpretation of the Word fails to do that, it may just be incorrect. I think that this statement can be applied to this thread.

Diane






_________________
Diane

 2007/6/8 10:56Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Love" proves itself on here.


Hi, Annie, and welcome back to SI. Sorry, I've been ignoring you. I guess I've been struggling, wondering if God still wants me here. Maybe ....

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/6/8 11:03Profile









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

sb1175

Quote:
[b]it dawned upon me from a preaching i heard here at SI the reason there is even this contention between the genders is, the one to be head of the weaker vessel has never fully submitted to God[/b]... i know this one thing from experience- what is practiced at church better be practiced at home first. [b]and that goes especially true for men, for we have completely a convoluted idea of what a leader is[/b]. i ask this with great humility and knowing my place (i am not a father neither married), but which of you fathers habitually ask forgiveness from your children when you have been convicted that you have harmed them?

Brother, you've hit the nail on the head. This is part of the deal.

I became the head of my children's household and I've done a fair bit of apologising already. I expect to do a whole lot more as they gain adult objectivity, and have more to say about my failings. I'm not afraid of this. In fact, I think I believe it may be part of winning them to Christ.

 2007/6/8 12:59









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

Mike Balog asked

Quote:
something that continues to puzzle me is just why a proper understanding of spiritual submission is so ... fought against.

Hi Mike, (Sorry this is a bit long.)

Maybe you are picking up something here which is a valid comment.

But I would like to offer, tentatively, that perhaps spiritual authority is not as common as men / brethren may like to think?

I mean, as sb1175 drew out, what [i]is[/i] it that qualifies a man to give [i]spiritual[/i] leadership?

I'm not sure if roadsign has offered this definition of submission in this thread, but she would put it this way: to give up one's 'right's for the benefit of another.

The only way I can make sense of this within Christianity, is through understanding that the word of God brings life, because it is counter-intuitive to the flesh. It brings the flesh to death, and this is where time meets eternity.


You know I submitted myself religiously for several years to false teaching and practice, because I believed it was my [i]place[/i] as a female to be submitted to 'eldership'. And I'm sure God did things in me through that time which are to His glory today. Certainly, I [i]did[/i] learn how to 'submit', but, it was [u]not[/u] to [i]spiritual[/i] authority in the meaning of [i]God-given[/i] authority in that man, as you might understand 'spiritual authority' ought to be: it was to a pagan man with a lot of Christianese in his talk and no Jesus Christ in his walk.

So, when you ask why there is, apparently, resistance to what you call 'a proper understanding of spiritual submission', I think the answer lies in varieties of the bad experience I had, as much as in the culture of the age, in which women are encouraged to compete with men, and men are not encouraged to either respect or protect women, but to leave them to fend for themselves.

If you move this fairly common experience among [i]women[/i] into 'the church' (small 'c'), and you really see a worldly culture of mysogyny (well-)established in churches, you may begin to understand the real spiritual cunundrum both genders face.... Women are looking for the Jesus whom men claim to submit to - in their voice, their teaching, their example and their humility - so feel safe in submitting at that profundity of spirit which scripture appears to require. In general, where it exists (true spiritual authority), I believe 'spiritual' woman will perceive and recognise it, because they also have been submitted to God in praying and wrestling to become like Jesus in their own walk.


A while ago I realised that all discord in 'the Church' is because of carnality - the flesh having too much to say for itself. But, despite this, the Lord and the Spirit seek to use [i]even such people[/i] to minister to each other as members of His Body, and this seems even more of a wonder!

But also, where submission to God is [i]lacking[/i] in a 'church leader', there is a genuine question of how much they [u]are[/u] to be obeyed by those who [i]are[/i] spiritual? In the end, we ought to obey God rather than man, if that becomes the choice... yes or no?

Recently I was very comforted by these verses from John.

1 John 3:1
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! [b]Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.[/b]

1 John 3:13
Do not marvel, my brethren, if [u]the world[/u] hates you.

These gave me a comfortable feeling of invisiblity, and a new level of permission to be even more conformed to His image, regardless of man / men / people in general!


I am beginning to see that there is a God-given [i]natural[/i] order in some marriages, as spoken to Adam and Eve, but I'm honestly not sure how far it can be upheld between a believer and an unbeliever, after one of the spouses becomes the Lord's. [i]That[/i] one becomes the spiritual leader, even if it is the woman and she has to obey God first in all things, and it is presumed (by scripture) that the Christian will understand, tolerate and pray for the unbeliever because of love - not just in the strength of their prior natural love, but now, in the love of God. I think that ass long as the natural love continues to hold, God can work [i]wonders[/i], but I believe it does have to be [i]God[/i] who is orchestrating and confirming His will to the believer in these initmate situations.


On the question in the leading post, I am much more comfortable since the Lord has been dealing with my own heart and mind, to leave all teaching within 'the Church' to brethren, (where there are brethren), but, I expect to continue explaining scripture to unbelievers, teaching young believers who have no other guidance, and even to 'teach' adults who are open to read scripture for the first time, seeking understanding, and to pray with whoever needs it, not only for specific life situations but also for healing.

On a light note, an evangelist I know was greatly amused by an article in a Christian newspaper here, which reported on two Christian ladies who had been accused of evangelising in a Muslim country. The article concluded that they had done nothing wrong, [i]because[/i] there was 'no evidence' against them. His amusement rested on the thought that this was hardly a recommendation of their functionality as evangelists! Just how could they look Peter in the eye, one great day? In a roundabout way, I realised we can talk about God all we like, but if those who hear us remain unaffected, we have abjectly failed.

 2007/6/8 13:40









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Mike Balog asked
Quote:
something that continues to puzzle me is just why a proper understanding of spiritual submission is so ... fought against.

Hi Mike

Maybe you are picking up something here which is a valid comment.

But I would like to offer, tentatively, that perhaps spiritual authority is not as common as men / brethren may like to think?

…what [i]is[/i] it that qualifies a man to give [i]spiritual[/i] leadership?...


Recently, a practical aspect of this question came up in the church where the Lord sent me. One of the leaders was preaching about 1Corinthians 4:14f
[i][color=000066] 14 I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. [/color][/i]

I suppose a spiritual “father” could be in one of two categories: one who has personally led you to Christ, or you came through his preaching. Or one who has that special quality, by reason of spiritual maturity, of being a “father” (as in 1John 2:14). It’s a quality that’s hard to define but can be recognised in certain individuals.

But this man (who is normally pretty "sound" and a good Bible teacher) said that "fathers" means the leaders of the church, and especially, in this case, the "apostle" (there's only one in this particular denomination; it was started by two brothers, but one has died).

Paul was literally the spiritual father of many or most in the Corinthian church – his preaching brought them to Christ - it's not the same situation at all. Even though the leaders of this church no doubt “travail” over the people they are given to care for, as Paul did.

They were talking about it in a house group and I had to say that I don't personally see the elders as my spiritual fathers - even though I love and respect them greatly as brothers, and as leaders (which I do). And I never met the “apostle”, and only heard him speak once – so how can he be my “father” in Christ.

There are men in the church who I would say have that quality of "fathers", but not the leaders - they are too young! I was a Christian almost before the youngest one was even born! That in no way means I don’t respect them, but just don’t have that kind of relationship with them.

I tried to explain this in the group but most of them wouldn’t have it – the leaders are the “fathers” of the church – [i]because[/i] they are the leaders, and that is that!

Except it isn’t…

Quote:
…But also, where submission to God is [i]lacking[/i] in a 'church leader', there is a genuine question of how much they [u]are[/u] to be obeyed by those who [i]are[/i] spiritual? In the end, we ought to obey God rather than man, if that becomes the choice... yes or no?

Maybe Galatians 2:4 is relevant here?: [i][color=000066] 4 But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage— 5 [u]to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you[/u] [/color][/i]

But it says in 1 Thessalonians 5:12
[i][color=000066] 12 But we beseech you, brethren, to [u]respect[/u] (or pay attention to, look to) those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to [u]esteem them very highly in love[/u] because of their work. [/color][/i]

Quote:
…You know I submitted myself religiously for several years to false teaching and practice, because I believed it was my [i]place[/i] as a female to be submitted to 'eldership'. And I'm sure God did things in me through that time which are to His glory today. Certainly, I [i]did[/i] learn how to 'submit', but, it was [u]not[/u] to [i]spiritual[/i] authority in the meaning of [i]God-given[/i] authority …

That so easily happens with many of us women - submission to what turns out to be anti-God authority. I suppose the same (mostly feminine) weakness that allowed the Serpent to deceive Eve.

Quote:
So, when you ask why there is, apparently resistance to what you call 'a proper understanding of spiritual submission', I think the answer lies in varieties of the bad experience I had, as much as in the culture of the age, in which women are encouraged to compete with men, and men are not encouraged to either respect or protect women, but to leave them to fend for themselves.

If you move this fairly common experience among [i]women[/i] into 'the church' (small 'c'), and you really see a worldly culture of misogyny (well-)established in churches, you may begin to understand the real spiritual conundrum both genders face.... Women are looking for the Jesus whom men claim to submit to - in their voice, their teaching, their example and their humility - so feel safe in submitting at that profundity of spirit which scripture appears to require. In general, where it exists (true spiritual authority), I believe 'spiritual' woman will perceive and recognise it, because they also have been submitted to God in praying and wrestling to become like Jesus in their own walk.

Yes, and spiritual men will recognise such a woman, respect her Christlikeness, and not oppress or belittle her because she is a “weaker vessel”

Quote:
…I am beginning to see that there is a God-given [i]natural[/i] order in some marriages, as spoken to Adam and Eve, but I'm honestly not sure how far it can be upheld between a believer and an unbeliever, after one of the spouses becomes the Lord's. [i]That[/i] one becomes the spiritual leader, even if it is the woman and she has to obey God first in all things, and it is presumed (by scripture) that the Christian will understand, tolerate and pray for the unbeliever because of love - not just in the strength of their prior natural love, but now, in the love of God. I think that ass long as the natural love continues to hold, God can work [i]wonders[/i], but I believe it does have to be [i]God[/i] who is orchestrating and confirming His will to the believer in these initmate situations.

I have a friend who has gone through this, learning from the Lord, step by painful step, over many years how to take the spiritual authority in the home, yet without usurping her husband's natural authority.

It helps that they have a very good strong marriage - they are friends as well as husband and wife. Also he's a good man, though not saved, and gives her a lot of freedom in decisions in running the household and in her personal life.

But if it comes to the crunch, he will take the authority.

But my friend is the one who also had to learn to take up and use the [i]spiritual[/i] authority in her household, because her husband isn't yet in the place to do it.

Blessings

jeannette

 2007/6/8 19:14
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Spiritual Authority

Quote:
UniqueWebRev wrote:
Quote:
That's a pity, since I believe in the direct authority of the Bishop or Pastor to direct the teaching of his congregation, and use whatever tools he needs or has, male or female, to further his teaching of the congregation in church.

Delegation of teaching, even to a woman, does not dilute the authority of the person (Bishop or Pastor) who gives it, nor their responsibility to see it taught as given.





Crsschk wrote:

Quote:
Is this pragmatism? [i][b]In the Church[/b][/i] or "In Church" to use your words.



It may indeed be pragmatism, inasmuch as any truly sold out to Christ believer can be pragmatic. But one can be quite spiritual in one's contact with God, and still be practical in life.

And I was speaking about the transfer of assigned authority within a church congregation inside the Church Corporate.


Quote:
I am unsure what the pity is here.



I considered it a pity that you were being distressed by simply the discussion of the matter again, since as a moderator, you have seen this argument come and go many times before.

Quote:
What do you mean by delegation? In the place of a pastor? Before a congregation, however that congregation assembles?



I consider the Pastor of a church to be in headship over the congregation in the same way that a husband is over a wife, and that Christ is over the church corporate.

We cannot exist sperately from one another, and indeed are blood and bone of each other in Christ.

But whether it is within a marriage, or a church, there is an intimacy, a dependence and an interdependence on one another. I do not think that Paul ever disdained women as workers in the congregation, but merely was keeping the spiritual authority where God had placed it...in the hands of the man chosen to be in authority.

To me, if the Pastor of a church has work to be delegated, even if it is teaching, it can be delegated to whom he chooses, male or female. They become merely the carrier of the message, and not the author of it. And the responsibility for the accuracy of the message lies on the Pastor, and his control of his messengers.

It is the same within a marriage, where the husband decides spiritual goals and lessons, but then must go to work, and delegates the teaching of those goals and lessons to the wife for the benefit of their children.

Women are not incapable of spiritual gifts, and are the spiritual equal of men. They are merely not to be in headship or authority over men within the church, or within a Christian mariage. And a woman that is passing on the message of her Pastor to other men is merely a voice he is using, even as a man uses the hands and voice of his wife to teach their children.

Quote:
Is this not the whole dispute that has Paul so pinned up against a wall with accusations and insinuations? Please don't get me wrong here it is difficult to ascertain much of this problem because it keeps criss-crossing other elements that are already understood of woman who taught and gave prophecy and so forth ... I am attempting to nail this thing down to straight fundamental understanding of what Paul meant in the context he spoke of it, is it a practical matter only or is it a spiritual matter of order simultaneously?



Mike, I believe it is both, but not in the same ways.

As a practical matter, God uses men and women interchangably to get His work done, and considers them all to be equal in the spirit, but as a practical matter, must place the responsibility and therefore the authority on one of the two in a marraige, or within a church setting.

But I do see men as being a bit paranoid about women getting one step out of bounds, lest their masculine pride be hurt. And since a woman is ordered not to love her husband, but to respect him, I think God took that into consideration of the relationship order between them. He needs respect; she needs love.

God purposely made men and women to complement each other, not to be in competition with each other, and He made woman for man that 'he' should not be alone. Oddly, nothing is said about woman's needs or desires until after the fall.

I rather think that men have overdone the contempt of women over the eons, and indeed, have a fear of women taking their place from them. And since women often have to be everything to themselves, and their children, when their men are killed in war, or their husbands desert them, I do think that men's fear of women just taking over, and doing without them is somewhat understandable. And I think that the Devil uses it to torment us all.

Yet even though Adam had the greater sin in the fall from grace, and God placed the greater burden on man, men have been placing the majority of the blame on Eve ever since, guarding themselves from women as though Eve was the devil, instead of the serpent that deceived Eve.

God gave man the authority over his wife and family, but women have been beaten down for eons by the culture of men, as if somehow women really are, somehow inferior to men, instead of just different.

I think of women in the Middle East and Asia that are disdained as a rule, and wonder that Western thought ever allowed women to progress, except for the nasty habit men have of getting themselves into wars, and consequently having to turn over a good deal of authority to women while they were off fighting.

I am quite glad to be female, and wouldn't take on any of the burden of a man if I didn't have to. But God made me capable of independence, and called me to do certain work for Him. So I do it, and simply don't worry about it. God is more than capable of calling me to order.

Quote:
I may well be in error myself but something that continues to puzzle me is just why a proper understanding of spiritual submission is so ... fought against.



Never having been in a church setting for long, I have never experienced it, just as I have never been overly aware of gender problems in the workplace, or at home. They exist, but I have always found myself able to work with them. To me, all these things are partnerships, and some people are better at some things than others.

The spiritual authority of the male over the female in their marriage carries with it responsibility. If the man picks up the responsibility, I have no problem with him having the authority.

But when a man doesn't recognise his responsibility, I, and most women, will ignore that man's authority out of sheer self defense, for someone has to get the work done, the children fed and clothed, and so forth. Any problems you are having in discerning a natural line of spiritual and temporal authority is due to other men not shouldering their burdens, and to the Evil One's interference between the sexes to provoke these difficulties.

Quote:
It just seems quite 'natural' spiritually speaking but even ... inherently, that there are roles defined that don't really need all this extra explanation. We do not or perhaps it is will not place our opinion to the test of what scripture demands and rather than do so gladly it is often reluctantly.

Submission and authority are so closely interwoven ... whose [i]authority[/i] is it that we are speaking of anyway? What is it we seek? Authority for ourselves, power? Or that the Lord be truly glorified? It really does come done to this ... I could but pray the messages from Stephen Kaung would be given a prayerful hearing, it sheds so much light on this amongst many, many other tremendous matters.

I am not at odds with you sister, but something is just breaking upon me collectively over all these matters of roles of ourselves as [i]Brethren[/i], 'in the church', in our marriages, in all things ... Do we not desire to get at the very roots of these things?



Those of us who put Christ first will still have our flesh to contend with, and the devil's interferance in our dealings with one another.

Quote:
...[i]to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/i]



Spiritually, we all, men and women, must be conformed to Christ's image. The problem lies when we, as humans, get in the way of each other as spiritual beings. And all of us have to deal with that, and each other, until we are gloriefied...part of the penalty of the fall, all this handwringing over whether men are being too harsh, or women too froward. It is our natural condition.

Take a deep breath, and let it go. It is Christ that is important, and His work. If we can get that done, then we are doing well, no matter whether practical concessions are made on the basis of getting that work done.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/9 3:14Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy