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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

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HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:



God's allowed to change His mind...and always has been. And Paul contradicted himself.






I haven't read close to everything on here since I haven't been on for three days, but I had to say this:

Since God was speaking through Paul there couldn't have been contradictions. That would mean there's error in God's Word, which can't happen.

Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2007/6/6 21:27Profile









 Re:

Philip, I forgive you. You did not understand my post. That's O.K..

Love you in Christ.
Annie

"A merry heart maketh good like a medicine."

 2007/6/6 21:37
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
Re male leadership, there's also the fact of a man usually having a deeper voice, that carries more of the "sound" of authority. We women have to (in the natural) work harder at earning respect because we are often less physically imposing. The tragedy is that when God does give a woman authority - of any kind - people are less likely to listen. Unless she forfeits femininity, and perhaps the grace of God in her life, by being too bossy and aggressive, in an attempt to be heard at all.



Interesting comments, Jeanette, I’ve come to the point where I see no need to try to “lower my voice”, prove myself, to “win” anyone’s “recognition”, and certainly not to forfeit femininity! Whatever God may want to give me is his business and his responsibility. And I suspect that most of it is through the quiet whispers, and the quiet BEHAVIOR (May God help me!) Actually, it’s interesting how just by practising the quiet manner, people notice (and comment). I’ve had some interesting opportunities to share the Lord with agnostics, atheists, etc. If I was too assertive, male-ish, they would have raised their walls sky-high.

And now about the “women” scriptures:

One concern I have with taking these scriptures superficially is that, (besides making scripture contradict itself) we fail to grasp the abiding, universal principle that applies to ALL cultures at ALL times. For example: Most of us realize that we are not “ignoring” Jesus’ teaching on foot washing just because we don’t practise it. We immediately know that it is the PRINCIPLE that we must follow. We must be willing to be a servant to others – whatever that may mean in our culture. (People don’t need their feet washed where most of us live.)

Just imagine if we applied the same hermeneutics to the “women’s passages”: What if the church forbade ALL who were not grounded in the word, who were spiritually immature, or not sitting under good teaching and training (ex five-fold roles). Think how many of our elders would suddenly no longer be elders in our churches – because they did not qualify! Let me tell you, I know more than a few churches that that would have no leadership at all.

Eldership in too many churches has degenerated to business management, not spiritual discipleship. These leaders barely even read their bibles, let alone do some serious studying in preparation for teaching others. That cannot be “okay” just because they are the “proper gender”!! Yet, no one bats an eyelash about these men (though they sure would squawk if women took their positions) The people end up following after all kinds of heresies because their leaders fail to ground them in truth.

Applying that principle would also keep feminists from raising their ugly heads, and demanding “equal opportunities”.


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/6/6 22:57Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Meek and mild ...

I really wanted to beg off of this whole thing, there is something that had put my spirit in a tailspin of ... despondency.

Quote:
Re male leadership, there's also the fact of a man usually having a deeper voice, that carries more of the "sound" of authority. We women have to (in the natural) work harder at earning respect because we are often less physically imposing. The tragedy is that when God does give a woman authority - of any kind - people are less likely to listen. Unless she forfeits femininity, and perhaps the grace of God in her life, by being too bossy and aggressive, in an attempt to be heard at all.



Oh no, no, no sister. It is not that at all ... To be honest I was hoping that some of the more ... quiet sisters here would speak to all of this, what I mean is;

1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

[b]1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.[/b]

1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

That verse, the standout that lifts everything up with it ... [i]In the sight of God[/i] and for the true brother in the Lord it is most precious. To just divert for a minor moment. Even many years ago when my best friend and I were in more sober moments, partiers that we were .. confused, tossed and turned, half-searching, half-rebels, still, for all the lust and the hormones ... we both desired a true Godly woman, that was of this making. Why is that? What is this great appeal that cuts through even the facades that men in general must play along with to keep our 'image up', I am regressing here in many ways to pre- or true-conversion days. We did not seek them because of a perceived weakness but because of their [i]quiet strength[/i]. How much more so is it noticed even now. It was the very evidence that drew me to my wife, her peaceful demeanor, her love of the Lord ... yes, [i]without a word[/i], not no words .. it's underneath, it permeates, it cuts through on it's own. These verses are so vitally important ...

The many arguments that have come about over this issue, that one solitary word sums it up all so well ... in fact I had written quite the rant earlier and shelved it ... and it had it's launching point in it, that word;

[i]assertiveness[/i]

Diane, thank you sister, you touched the point here;

Quote:
And I suspect that most of it is through the quiet whispers, and the quiet BEHAVIOR (May God help me!) Actually, it’s interesting how just by practising the quiet manner, people notice (and comment). I’ve had some interesting opportunities to share the Lord with agnostics, atheists, etc. If I was too assertive, male-ish, they would have raised their walls sky-high.



Yes they comment, more so they desire this, oh dear sisters if you only knew! We can be so warped ... it's not a gender specific thing at all. We have become so ... perplexed that we have to do a mile of explaining and ten more miles of clarifications before we can even get to the root of the matter. Paradox is such a peculiar thing ... to the world it is often, [i]foolishness[/i] indeed, but for us, the scriptures are riddled with them and to those of us who are willing to just ... divest ourselves of them, they are tremendous, beautiful, wonderful truths, they are [i]seemingly[/i] 'contradictory but we know, we know deep down. Not repaying evil for evil, suffering 'unjustly' with patience and love and forgiveness. Taking up our cross, 'dying to ourselves', doing the opposite of what the flesh would dictate ... all these things. And this one, this subject, so manipulated and contrived and compromised and over\under explained. It is not so many of the very things thought to bear upon it. It is opposite, paradox! It breaks my heart that a woman would think that she is dis-empowered and must somehow raise herself up to ... what? The way is down for all of us! Deny yourself, lose yourself for Jesus sake and ...

Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake [i]shall find it[/i].

This usurping, this oneupmanship, this [i]assertiveness[/i]. To answer the very question posted originally is to answer no. The verse in great question and put to controversy is; '[i]in it's place[/i]' is it not? In this setting, this surrounding ... I think the woman that have gripped the truth of Peter above know this very well and their quiet acceptance and understanding speaks powerfully and truthfully all on it's own.

Feel I must reluctantly add the provisions of 'what it does not mean'. It does not mean ... most of the semi -tirades associated with it. It does not mean [i]never[/i], it does not mean woman are never to teach, never to 'prohecie' ... Oh, I cannot go on. Perhaps I should post the rant after all.

I truly pray that some of the sisters here that cannot see the truth and beauty and power that is latent within this would honesty and earnestly hear this broken heart, we need more of the woman that Peter speaks to here, truly the Church first and foremost, but the world as well. Lord, give us woman of this high precious stature.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/7 0:07Profile









 Re:

i have kept quiet as a Male not a female on this matter. i will seem extremely harsh on my gender though be i speaking this also indirectly to women too. i kid you not, i have written now at least 5 posts, to post on this topic, and never did. my issue is not women should obey or not? it dawned upon me from a preaching i heard here at SI the reason there is even this contention between the genders is, the one to be head of the weaker vessel has never fully submitted to God. yeah- i realize i might not have insight about this subject like most do here for i am mere 28. but, i know this one thing from experience- what is practiced at church better be practiced at home first. and that goes especially true for men, for we have completely a convoluted idea of what a leader is. i ask this with great humility and knowing my place (i am not a father neither married), but which of you fathers habitually ask forgiveness from your children when you have been convicted that you have harmed them? (and that includes methods that you would implement to bring about some good you deem they would need to know, experience, or hold onto, but the method is slimey, cunning, and quite wicked)

 2007/6/7 6:37









 Re:

Quote:
but which of you fathers habitually ask forgiveness from your children when you have been convicted that you have harmed them?



Just ask my kids... not being a perfect father, I ask their forgiveness quite regularly. Thank the Lord my wife is right there to point it out when I have been wrong. I dont always realize it.

Krispy

 2007/6/7 7:42
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: On Women Teaching

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
I really wanted to beg off of this whole thing, there is something that had put my spirit in a tailspin of ... despondency.

....Feel I must reluctantly add the provisions of 'what it does not mean'. It does not mean ... most of the semi -tirades associated with it. It does not mean [i]never[/i], it does not mean woman are never to teach, never to 'prohecie' ... Oh, I cannot go on. Perhaps I should post the rant after all.





Dear Mike,

Don't take this discussion so much to heart.

This issue is and always will be regarding the lines of authority in the church. And in the Bible, the line of authority is clear. Jesus to Husband to Wife. Or Jesus to Bishop/Pastor to the next designee, male or female.

It is merely a wise Bishop or Pastor that does not waste the talents of his congregation, for it is a rare Christian, male or female, that does not hear first of Jesus from his mother or grandmother. And many women have been gifted and called by the Holy Spirit.

Which reminds me of Timothy, who learned of Jesus from his mother and grandmother, much to Paul's great pleasure, to find so rare a disciple trained up to him, and Jesus, by those devout and pious ladies.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/7 7:46Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Understanding

Quote:
Don't take this discussion so much to heart.



I can do no other.
Quote:
This issue is and always will be regarding the lines of authority in the church. And in the Bible, the line of authority is clear. Jesus to Husband to Wife.



Precisely.

Quote:
Or Jesus to Bishop/Pastor to the next designee, male or female.



ah ... not sure exactly what this could mean.

Quote:
It is merely a wise Bishop or Pastor that does not waste the talents of his congregation, for it is a rare Christian, male or female, that does not hear first of Jesus from his mother or grandmother. And many women have been gifted and called by the Holy Spirit.



There is no denying any of this but seems it can still be a wedge, again an assertion ... 'Don't forget', I am not trying to draw an inference but it just seems a lot of time there has to be a holding down or holding back the full force of the spiritual aspect of order.

I was attempting to draw on the greatness and inherent power that is contained in what Peter stated. In one sense you are proving precisely what I meant by having to go on and on about 'what it does not mean' ...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/7 9:44Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
Re male leadership, there's also the fact of a man usually having a deeper voice, that carries more of the "sound" of authority. We women have to (in the natural) work harder at earning respect because we are often less physically imposing. The tragedy is that when God does give a woman authority - of any kind - people are less likely to listen. Unless she forfeits femininity, and perhaps the grace of God in her life, by being too bossy and aggressive, in an attempt to be heard at all.


-------------------------------------------------Oh no, no, no sister. It is not that at all ... To be honest I was hoping that some of the more ... quiet sisters here would speak to all of this,

Dear Bro Mike

I haven't fully read your post, as I have to go soon, but get the impression that you think I actually [i]agree[/i] with a woman being "bossy" :-(

I certainly [i]don't[/i], and want to make that absolutely clear. The comment quoted above was pointing out that men are - even by their physical attributes (eg, deep voice, strength) normally [u]more fitted than women[/u] for a leadership role!

I was also emphasising the [i]dangers[/i] of women - even maybe some with genuine gifts from the Lord - who (wrongly) feel they have to "force" people to listen to them by behaving in an over-assertive mannish way!

Hope this eases your mind on this topic.

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/6/7 12:24









 Re:

Just casually reading along and Trisha Tillin came to mind.

What say ye ?

When getting on to the internet for the first time, only 5 years ago, she amazed me. Along with Berit Kjos.

I forgot about those two when posting here.

 2007/6/7 12:36





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