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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

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roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
the correct thing, and a cherished thing, and because it is correct and spiritual, it is the most difficult thing to forsake or to abandon. To give up or to abandon carnal or material things is no sacrifice at all, but the abandonment for which the Lord waits is clearly a sacrifice...



Quote:
The last and most deadly hiding place of self is not in our carnality but, as I so often say, in our spirituality.



MANY thanks, Jeanette, for posting Katz' words. I remember hearing this, but need a loud reminder! I know that my spirituality can so easily become my idol - subtly and unconsciously. Without realizing it we can find ourselves doing the Lord’s work in our own strength. And then it is NOT really the Lord’s work, but ours.

That idea is reinforced in this audio sermon:
[url=http://theschoolofchrist.org/webcast.html]Adjustment to the Government of the Holy Spirit - by Chip Brodgen [/url]

This is A MUST!!! This webcast is a jolting reminder of how easily we can slip out from under the Spirit’s authority. I don’t think I’ve ever recommended an audio so strongly. It is gripping – a word from the Lord for spiritual leaders! Even if you need to download it for later, you will appreciate it. (I think it will only be online for a short time before being replaced by another webcast.)

May the Lord enable us to sacrifice our Isaacs – that very thing that God puts within us to bring about his purposes.


Actually Jeanette, you captured a quote from my post - the words that I subsequently deleted (out of fear of being too verbose). Alas, you were meant to “grab” it!

The intent of that post was to address moe_mac’s comment that if we “ignore” the scriptures on women, then why not “ignore” the scripture on paying our pastors. I wanted to point out that we can’t even apply that one all the time necessarily. Maybe Paul would say to some of our modern churches (or individuals): “Do NOT pay those spiriutal "authorities.” And surely we would not extract that and expect that to be applied globally.

On the other hand, we may be excercised to support some of those who provide spiritual teachings on the net for free, or those in poor countries who hardly get pennies for preaching the word.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/7/2 19:51Profile









 Re:

More recommended reading:

[b]Women In Discernment[/b]


http://www.discernment-ministries.org/NLJulyAug_2007.htm

 2007/7/2 21:49









 Re: P.S.

It was at the bottom of page 19 that I put the link up for Mike, to whom I owe a [b]Major[/b] Apology to.

And to PaulWest.



Here's the link again for anyone else.

http://www.benisrael.org/writings/articles_artkatz/Beyond_Categories.html

 2007/7/2 21:58
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Women In Discernment

Dear Annie,

You have put me in something of a pickle not wanting to respond here any longer ... so much said so poorly and made even more confusing by myself. Just this little break in the silence.

Whatever it is, if there is anything that needs to be forgiven sister it is so far back in my heart and mind as to be given without the asking ... all the time, all the way back to the cross that forgave us all.

The article from the sisters ... tremendous, truly wonderful.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/7/2 22:45Profile









 Re:

Thank you Mike!

Sorry it took so long. I needed to review my view also and clear my spectacles there after.

Blessings to you!

 2007/7/3 0:12









 Re: Abortion?

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

I am probably more exasperated that no-one on SI will come out and say something pragmatic about the issues facing those assisting women in childbirth or pregnancy, than you are with me.

This statement is not an 'I think'. This is an 'I know'. I believe there may well be a special blessing in childbirth to women who know the Lord, in line with Paul's word to Timothy.

But, I cannot fathom the silence which has ensued since I asked for anyone to offer an answer (the question posed a different way) for what a doctor is supposed to do when a woman would die if her unborn child is not removed first?

'I think', with the best will in the world, there are some situations for which only the persons going through them, can take full spiritual responsibility, and we cannot rob them of their mistakes or the solutions in God, to those mistakes. It is not how God dealt with us, I suspect... :-?

If abortion is murder, then from Cain to Barabbas, God took responsibility for their murders, ultimately, at the cross.

Hi Linn

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the topic in hand. Except that saying that abortion is always forbidden and that its murder, is an example of a harsh generality in the same vein as making "I suffer not a woman to teach" into a rigid law.

Is that what you meant?

Would it be best to start another thread on the subject? Or maybe it would be too painful for those who have had abortions?

I haven't had children, so am not really qualified to comment on this emotive issue. All of us must surely hate abortion, but what of cases where, as you say, there is a choice between the life of mother and the life of her child? Or sometimes it is a choice between saving the mother's life at the cost of the child, or of both dying together.

Although there have been cases where the parents have trusted God and not ended the pregnancy, and both mother and child survived.

There is one scripture I can think of that is relevant: Although it's a slightly different scenario it does suggest that there is no death penalty for abortion, even in the Old Testament, unless the mother is also killed by the procedure.

Exodus 21:22[i][color=000066]21:22 “If men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely,51 but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman’s husband demands of him, and he will pay what the court decides.52 21:23 But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life, 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.[/color][/i]

Not sure what translation this is, it's vaguer than the KJV. My Bible Study tool (from CD) has gone funny and I don't yet know how to get different versions on e-sword or NetBible.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/7/3 6:35









 Re:

Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
It was at the bottom of page 19 that I put the link up for Mike, to whom I owe a [b]Major[/b] Apology to.

And to PaulWest.

Here's the link again for anyone else.

http://www.benisrael.org/writings/articles_artkatz/Beyond_Categories.html

Thank you so much Annie! I had forgotten that it was from you. Only that it "knocked my socks off, as a friend from the North of England would say!

Maybe I owe you an apology too, Mike. I could understand so clearly where you were going wrong, and trying so hard to help you "SEE" it.

Then the Holy Spirit, through Art, not only put into words what I'd been trying to say to you but deeply challenged [i][u]me[/i][/u] on another aspect of the same truth!

I call it the boomerang effect - you send forth the Word of God and it swoops straight back and hits you in the midriff! (It used to sometimes happen to me when preaching - you proclaim a truth, and the Lord whispers in your heart, "[i]You[/i] need to hear that") :eek: :knockedout:

I also saw that I'd been usurping authority too, not so much yours, Mike, but HIS. Trying to help but getting in HIS way!

You know the saying, "She's the sort of woman who lives for others. You can tell the others by their hunted expressions!"

Yeah, a very sexist remark. But it does seem to be true that many women "need to be needed" - more than men. It's certainly been true of me anyway, (because of rejection; a "make yourself useful and maybe people will like you" sort of reaction).

Maybe a corrupted form of Eve's original purpose, to be a fit help to Adam?

Men have a different version of needing a purpose in life, maybe seeking an identity through work, while women usually find purpose through nurturing others.

Perhaps we should have a thread called "vive la difference!" celebrating how our lives and personalities, as men and women, compliment each other.

I'm starting to ramble!

Love in Him

Jeannette


 2007/7/3 7:07









 Re:

Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
More recommended reading:

[b]Women In Discernment[/b]


http://www.discernment-ministries.org/NLJulyAug_2007.htm

looks interesting, have copied the article onto Word for easy reading

Jeannette

 2007/7/3 7:17
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: A Woman Speaking Under Authority

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

I am probably more exasperated that no-one on SI will come out and say something pragmatic about the issues facing those assisting women in childbirth or pregnancy, than you are with me.

This statement is not an 'I think'. This is an 'I know'. I believe there may well be a special blessing in childbirth to women who know the Lord, in line with Paul's word to Timothy.

But, I cannot fathom the silence which has ensued since I asked for anyone to offer an answer (the question posed a different way) for what a doctor is supposed to do when a woman would die if her unborn child is not removed first?




Linn,

My dear one, you specified men in your request for an answer to the above.

I fear that the men may not even understand the question, looking at 'abortion' as last minute contraconception, as opposed to the very real issue at stake.

If you want women to answer that question, well, then I will. But not on a 'Is a Woman Forbidden to Teach' thread.

The answer is not relevant here, nor is it an issue of doctrine, but an interpretation of law, and hence is a subjective opinion, in my belief.

But if you post the thread in the General Topic's section, I'll answer, and then we will really see the fur fly!

Blessings,

Forrest 8-)


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/3 7:40Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I quoted:
[i][color=000066]The paradox is that in these last days the potential for heresy is never more evident than now. [u]How do we abandon ourselves to God and yet remain watchmen on the walls?[/u] It is a remarkable quandary of an ultimate kind. It is these ultimate, brain-breaking quandaries that break us into a dimension of God that we would not be required to find or to enter under any other circumstances[/color][/i]

Maybe this is what we've all been wrestling with, on this and other threads.

How to be flexible in handling Scripture, because it is the LIVING Word of God; yet to at the same time avoid compromising Truth.

The only illustration I can think of is (of course!) a Biological one.

Living things have shape and form. But, because they are alive, that form takes many forms that are always changing. Yet they only change within certain parameters (I think that's the right word). Whether you believe it happens fast or slow, takes millions of years or a few generations, the living thing remains essentially the same, though with infinite variations [u]within[/u] the sameness.

How do we recognise that a dog isn't a cat, for example? How do we recognise that its a mammal and not a reptile or bird or fish? You can make definitians that give some idea how to recognise the difference, but there are almost always exceptions to any one rule you make. Fish, reptiles and birds lay eggs - don't they? But there are fish and reptiles that bear live young. Some fish even have a kind of placenta, like mammals do, for feeding their yong in the "womb", and the young are born as we are born. Duck-billed platypus have duck-like bills, and lay eggs. They have no proper "breasts" yet suckle their young on milk. Yet they are still obviously mammals! Cheetahs have non-retractable claws and have difficulty climbing trees; they are built and run like greyhounds, yet are clearly cats. We can [i]see[/i] that they are cats.

But why?????

To apply this principle to the Word: It "has shape and form". But, "because it is alive, that form takes many forms". Yet it "only changes within certain parameters". The basics, the "skeleton" truths that uphold our faith, as bones uphold our body, is always the same, (although even our bones are always changing, constantly renewing themselves from within). The [i]form[/i] of the Truth is the same. Yet the practical outliving, and application of Truth can change and adapt and take on many forms. That is why I believe that the Word against usurping authority is as part of the "skeleton" of the Word, a non-negotiable command, while "I suffer not a woman to teach" is not.

Take any passage of Scripture. If ten of us read it, praying that the Lord would spek to us through His Word, He would speak in ten different ways, as each had need of hearing. Ten different aspects of the same Truth, ten variations on the same theme.

Yet, as Paul said, Christ is not divided. The Word is the same Word, the Truth it expresses is the same Truth.

It even happened with that talk by Art Katz - as it can with any word spoken in the Spirit. (not to put that on a par with Scripture, but again it is the same Spirit who inspired the written Word who speaks to our hearts through a yielded vessel. No doubt every person in the room when he gave that talk (as long as they were receptive) took away with them something different from the Lord.

I'm talking too much today, almost in preaching mode there!!! :-)

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/7/3 7:50





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