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 Re: women teaching men

Joel said it would happen.

Acts 2:17-21
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV
What period is referred to in being the last days? The prophet Joel spoke of the future vent.
Joel 2:28-32
28'And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
(from New International Version)


Acts 2:17-21
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV
It came to pass in Acts

The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was given on the Day of Pentecost. It is most certainly later in those last days than it was when it was spoken in Acts.
Acts 2:2-4
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV
Every time the Spirit of the Lord convicts and one realizes he is a sinner and asked for mercy and receives that grace and mercy through the shed blood of Christ if they truly believe in their heart and confess with their mouth then HIS SPIRIT is being poured out on them and the Spirit of Christ is dwells in their mortal body.
A prophet is defined as person speaking God’s Word. We all if we are born again are to do that regardless of gender. We are a royal priesthood, which mean all are preachers.
But the instructions for Pastors and Deacons as men such as the Apostle Paul spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the guidelines are given in the New Testament. The question is our we more in line on saying with the worldly culture and our authority or staying in line with God's Holy inspired infallible Word of God.
If it were up to me to make the call on what gender should preach and teach men it would make no difference to me what gender the Pastor or Deacon gender would happen to be, but it is not up to me. In all our ways acknowledge him and he will direct our path and lean not to our own understanding. His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor HIS ways our ways. We are not to question or avoid instructions just because we might think they are contrary to our culture or even unfair. Trust and Obey, for there is no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.
And might I add if we consider some of the scriptures situational or occasional then would and do get many different opinion and that's why we have so many different denominations today. A personal interpration is called a buffet christianity. But we know that "all scripture is God breathed and is useful for correction instuction and rebuking that a man might throughly eqqipped for every good work. Paul also said that the the Lord commanded those who preach the gospel were to earn his living preaching the gospel. Was that situational?
Jesus’ prayer was about unity to let the world know.

John 17:20-23
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Speaking this truth will get you removed from many churches or at least be treated as though you have leprosy by both the brothers and the sisters. The brothers because they don't want to end up on the couch. But as B R Laken once said, " you know you are out in front if you are not getting kicked in the butt.

 2007/6/28 15:14









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Hi moe_mac,

You said:

Quote:
The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was given on the Day of Pentecost. [b]It is most certainly later in those last days than it was when it was spoken in Acts.[/b]

What is the 'it' which is 'most certainly later in those last days than it was when it was spoken in Acts', please?

Also, you said:
Quote:
Paul also said that the Pastor was to earn his living preaching.

Could you give chapter and verse for this please?


Actually, we have discussed (many times) whether the concept of 'pastor' as it is practised in churches today (many times), is what happened in the New Testament Church. Many of us (on SI) believe there is a model in 1 Cor 12 - 14 which can work, if those saints gathered for fellowship, have all been born again, and are given liberty to share according to the leadership of the Holy Spirit.


 2007/6/28 16:37









 Re:

Hello Dorcas,
Thanks for the tips on the correct way to post on the re: and the edit. I am new on here and it will take me awhile to learn the system but your info was helpful.

The topic got throw to back page or I would have attempt to answer your questions already. None of us should ever give a truth we can't back up with scripture and if we can't find it we need to say sorry I was wrong. Here goes.

On the subject on preachers earning their living for preaching the gospel.

1 Cor 9:12-14
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

As for the last days. The last days begin on the day of Pentecost and continues today. God poured of HIS SPIRIT on all flesh on the day of Pentecost and it continues to happen today when one accepts the free gift Christ gave whosoever will. Below is the references.

John 14:17-23
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
KJV

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
KJV
Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
KJV


If we have been saved we are baptized in HIS SPIRIT. If do not have HIS SPIRT we are lost. Not all are walking in the spirit. Not all are filled as full as they need to be. Some are leaking. I am not a full as I want to be.

I trust I have answered the questions you asked. Thanks for your reply and if I need to do any further explaining feel free to drop me an email or on a message as this one was.

I certainly would like to see HIS SPIRT fall in such as way past revivals. If we get into allowing HIS authority in church structure, government structure and family structure according to HIS WORD we could have revival instead the way we have always done it. Some things are preventing that from happening. I am talking about the attempt to silence GOD”S WORD and HIS WAYS and instruction for the family, the church and individuals.

God Bless







 2007/7/1 0:27









 Re:

The question is not are women allowed to teach men but are they instructed to teach men in the scriptural passages. All women are as important as man are to the Kingdom of God.
Titus 2:1-5
2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.


Our Savior came from an earthly women minus the seed of an earthly man but came when she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.
A woman was used as a messenger to tell the 12 men disciples he had risen.

Mark 16:6-7
6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
KJV

The Apostle Paul covered that subject of women in the church, women teaching who in the church, and a women's role in marriage as did he also cover the man's role. Quiet frequently he spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit if you believe all scripture is God breathed. Peter under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit confirmed Paul's letters in on that subject and others that were written to the church. Now would you say they were they only written to those churches or all churches?
2 Peter 3:15-18
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Are we honoring God's authority in the church in everything we do is the question? Are we worried more about our authority than his and what he has given to men. Is what we want to do on this subject and others than what his written his written word says?

This subject is not about salvation.
Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How do we do good works. Only by doing what he said in his word. We can't do that unless we are impowered and indwelled with His Spirit.
We honor Him by respecting His authority and the authority he gave to the church or the body of Christ and by lining up with His Word. The authority given to the Pastors, Elders and Deacons by the supreme authority Jesus Christ will give an account for all things allowed in the church. We will all give an account for what we have done and not done. For every idle word.

We all have many different opinions on the scriptures. His opinion triumps all opinions. If I or anyone else has a special revelation or let me say it this way if I have a special revelation that is not plain in the scriptures I would want to be certain it was a special revelation and indeed came from the Lord.

If these scriptures about women in the church was only to the unruly women at the time Paul spoke. Did he say "time out" let me say this and I will continue write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? And if that is the case then could we say other things such as Pastors earning there living preaching the Word was only for then and is not relevant today?

I have listened to some very talented, well presented female speakers addressing a multigender group. Women are much better than men in many areas including multi-tasking.

I believe the key to revival anywhere is dying to ourselves and our ways and the way we want to do it and lining up with his authority in the church, on the job and in the home.

Prov 3:3-7
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
KJV

We can't acknowledge Him any better way than obedience to His Word.

I realize this stance that the scripture literally means what it says is not a popular stance. Do you think it might have possibly been one of the reasons the world hated Paul?





_________________
1 Cor. 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 2007/7/2 1:56
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7481
Mississippi

 Re:

I was not going to respond to this thread but decided otherwise...may not continue after this particular post.... but who knows?

As I read the posts on this thread, I am taken back how many times the arguments are prefaced with "I think", "my experience" - it all centers on me and I. Whenever anyone uses experiences to defend an important position, one should become very cautious because too many times these statements supplant a Biblical principle. There is the command of faith and that means we act even when what we are asked to do makes no logial sense. For example, in the case of the killing of the unborn through abortion. The opposition to abortion is not a modern one that arose with modern technology: it was a position the early church practiced. Now how many other issues do we encounter where the logical sense would encourage us to do otherwise?

Consider faith: How does it translate to life, where the rubber meets the road?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/7/2 14:38Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
The authority given to the Pastors, Elders and Deacons by the supreme authority Jesus Christ ….



Authority? What exactly is this “supreme authority” that Christ has instituted? Was it not to preach the word, to disciple the flock; and to strengthen the sheep against all sorts of heresies?

Today, I invited a 19 yo lad to take the role of the “older brother” in a contemporized “Prodigal Sons” musical drama that I am writing and directing in our town theatre. I asked him if he knew the parable, and he said, “No.”

I have known this child from the time he was a toddler and I know that he has grown up in an evangelical church and family – well-churched. I was horrified that he did not know one of the classic stories in the Word.

Sadly, he is typical for today’s youth (and adults). The preaching of the word of God is lacking!!!!!! Where were the authorities?

Can we really say that “elders, deacon, and pastors” have “supreme authority’ if they are not UNDER the authority themselves – that is learning and teaching?

I regret to say that the general spiritual condition of our churches is appalling. And I am amazed that so many still view their leaders as “under divine authority”, when they are not doing their God-given jobs, and instead are doing what the church wants of them: make them feel good about themselves.

Our church people are being infiltrated with heretical influences – those who are getting a good buck from their followers – be it media personalities, guest speakers in church, or even the pastors themselves. In THIS respect, nothing has changed from Paul’s day: “People think religion is supposed to make you rich.” 1 Tim. 6:5 CEV. 1 Timothy is largely about false teachers who are trying to make a fast buck off of religion - teaching the law and heresies. Again, nothing has changed.

We ALSO read in 1Timothy: “The worker deserves his wages.” (5:18) I wouldn’t be surprised if the false teachers were distracting the congregation from paying the honest workers, (those authentically preaching the word) and instead were trying to get the offerings for themselves. That is exactly what is happening today.

Here’s another thought: How many of our religious leaders are taking a comfortable income – because they have the label and role, while the bulk of the word is quietly being taught through unpaid “lay” men and women.

Quote:
And if that is the case then could we say other things such as Pastors earning there living preaching the Word was only for then and is not relevant today?



Even this verse requires spiritual discernment. In fact, if our churches would stop paying people who were not doing the job God has called them to – even if they are called pastors, then we wouldn’t be fueling so many heresies or watered down preaching, or making people rich off of religion.

Oh, how we’d love to turn the Bible into a rule book and live by the law. The problem with this is no different than it was the first century. We judge people (ex ourselves) as obeying God when they are not, and we judge people as disobedient when in fact, they may very well be obedient.



Diane



_________________
Diane

 2007/7/2 16:42Profile









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Hi moe_mac,

Thank you for all the time, thought and scripture you put into your posts. I checked out those verses about a preacher living by the gospel, and I see what you are saying.

There is a fictional character in English literature, created by Chaucer, who he describes thus:

'He was a poor COUNTRY PARSON,
But rich he was in holy thought and work.
He was a learned man also, a clerk,
Who Christ's own gospel truly sought to preach;'

This was at the back of my mind when I asked the question, and on looking at it again, one of the points Chaucer repeats several times, is how this parson was not swayed by the financial status of the parishoner or how distant was his home if he needed a visit. Also, the parson was not afraid to reprimand a person, regardless of their social status, if he deemed it necessary.

One of the things which comes over most strongly in my reading of Tyndale's 1 Corinthians, is how extended Paul was for them. It is there in the KJV, but I missed it all. But he really loved them and yet challenged them on their attitude to him... lovingly.

Quote:
I realize this stance that the scripture literally means what it says is not a popular stance. Do you think it might have possibly been one of the reasons the world hated Paul?

You make an interesting point... in that it was the religious people who hated him rather than the Jews or gentiles who [i]believed[/i] what he preached. Peter makes this unmissable statement of spiritual dynamic:

Acts 5
29 But Peter and the [i]other[/i] apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree.
31 "Him God has exalted to His right hand [i]to be[/i] Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
32 "And we are His witnesses to these things, and [i]so[/i] also [i]is[/i] [u]the Holy Spirit whom God has [b]given to those who obey Him[/b][/u]."

 2007/7/2 18:04









 Re:

Quote:
Roadsign said: Oh, how we’d love to turn the Bible into a rule book and live by the law. Then we’d never have to need GOD. We’d never have to live by the Spirit. We’d never have to think, or discern. We’d never have to die. We could run the show in our power.

There you have the heart and essence of it Diane! Not usurping authority is the root of the matter, not keeping to the rigid rule of, "I suffer not a woman to teach"

Its strange that I was reading a transcript of one of Art Katz's talks, "Beyond Categories". It was another aspect that hit me, and a different topic again that was the main thrust of his talk; but much of what he said is relevant to our discussion here.

I can't find the online transcript but think it was Linn (Dorcas) who gave the link in one of her replies (in another thread?)

Here's a short quote from near the beginning. It blew me away - especially the description of abandonment.

[color=000066]When you look up the word ‘abandon’ in a dictionary, you find surprising dimensions of meaning such as, to give up the objective of ever again claiming one’s right or interest, or to give over and surrender completely to any attempt at self-control, to quit, relinquish, renounce, vacate, resign, discard, forswear, forsake; ‘to abandon’ denotes the absolute giving up of an object, surrendering it to the mercy of something or someone else greater.[/color]

However, the second part of the quote is more relevant to this thread.

[color=000066] Would it not be remarkable if the object that we need to give up were not some carnal thing but a spiritual thing, even a correct thing, and a thing pertaining to the Lord Himself, something so spiritual and cherished that we would not relinquish it even for the Lord Himself? That is the ultimate irony of the last impediment that stands between ourselves and Him, the last thing that keeps us from being that bridal company that follows Him ‘withersoever He goeth’. It is not the carnal, the wrong thing; [i][u]it is the correct thing, and a cherished thing, and because it is correct and spiritual, it is the most difficult thing to forsake or to abandon[/u][/i]. To give up or to abandon carnal or material things is no sacrifice at all, but the abandonment for which the Lord waits is clearly a sacrifice...

...that in the last analysis, the very zeal to protect and to defend truth as one sees it is the very thing that will ultimately persecute and crucify the Lord afresh.
We must have no vested interest even in our correctness because the Lord must always be allowed the privilege of leading us where He will and contradicting our categories - He will test us in precisely those areas. [i][u]Is the Lord really our Lord, unless we allow Him the right to set aside his own categories, to alter his own truths as we understand them, so that He can bring to us a new dimension which seems to threaten those things which were previously established and given by Him?[/u][/i] Is He really the Lord unless He has that prerogative, and that right to establish anything of his own choosing that seems to us a contradiction of even Himself? We are not fully abandoned to Him until we have abandoned ourselves to that...

...The last and most deadly hiding place of self is not in our carnality but, as I so often say, in our spirituality. Until we recognize that, and are open to God’s dealings with us in that place, we will oppose God even in defending Him. What killed Him at the first, the zealous intent of defenders of the faith, [i][u]purporting to protect the faith from seeming danger or the prospect of heresy, will kill Him again[/u][/i]. The paradox is that in these last days the potential for heresy is never more evident than now. [i][u]How do we abandon ourselves to God and yet remain watchmen on the walls?[/u][/i] It is a remarkable quandary of an ultimate kind. It is these ultimate, brain-breaking quandaries that break us into a dimension of God that we would not be required to find or to enter under any other circumstances[/color]

There is more on the same lines,but this is enough to get the idea.

As I said, it was the definition of abandonment that hit me - am I willing to "surrender completely to any attempt at self-control"?

Yours in Him

Jeannette

 2007/7/2 18:17









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Hi ginnyrose,

I know you are exasperated with my stance, but I've had the privilege of being taught something of obstetric history, and seen the difference to women's health which obstetric care offers.

I am probably more exasperated that no-one on SI will come out and say something pragmatic about the issues facing those assisting women in childbirth or pregnancy, than you are with me.

This statement is not an 'I think'. This is an 'I know'. I believe there may well be a special blessing in childbirth to women who know the Lord, in line with Paul's word to Timothy.

But, I cannot fathom the silence which has ensued since I asked for anyone to offer an answer (the question posed a different way) for what a doctor is supposed to do when a woman would die if her unborn child is not removed first?

I don't expect anyone to answer, now, but since you brought this up again, I'd like to leave the ball in your court.

Quote:
Consider faith: How does it translate to life, where the rubber meets the road?

'I think', with the best will in the world, there are some situations for which only the persons going through them, can take full spiritual responsibility, and we cannot rob them of their mistakes or the solutions in God, to those mistakes. It is not how God dealt with us, I suspect... :-?

If abortion is murder, then from Cain to Barabbas, God took responsibility for their murders, ultimately, at the cross. I do not 'believe in' the death penalty, but God did, and brought it to pass through the Old Covenant and His sentence of death on His Son, for us.

This is the raw and brutal reality of the gospel we preach, and which we seek to promote. By it, we can have no cause to reject anyone whom Jesus accepts if they come on His terms. Can we agree?


Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance. Romans 2:1 - 4
(See Rom 1:18 - 32. Note 'murder' in v 29)


Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw [i]it[/i], he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman [i]this is[/i] that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that [i]he[/i], to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? ... (Luke 7:39 - 44)

'Consider faith: How does it translate to life, where the rubber meets the road?'

Love Divine, all loves excelling, joy of heaven to earth come down!
Fix in us, Thy humble dwelling, all Thy faithful mercies crown,
Jesu, Thou art all Compassion, pure unbounded Love Thou art,
Visit us with Thy salvation, enter every trembling heart.

[i]Charles Wesley[/i]

 2007/7/2 18:23









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Hi Jeanette,

Quote:
I can't find the online transcript but think it was Linn (Dorcas) who gave the link in one of her replies (in another thread?)

It wasn't me, though I saw the link but have no idea where it was. Dian (Spitfire) had recommended Beyond Categories to me. I should listen to it soon!

GW North also preached this radical message, of there being a need to give [i]everything[/i] to God of our bad [i]and our good[/i], and receiving back from Him only what He chose to give back again. It's a tough one...

 2007/7/2 18:53





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