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UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: A Woman Speaking Under Authority

Quote:

murdog wrote:
Members,

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears;

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

2 Timothy 4:2-4

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

2 Timothy 3:7

Murray




Amen.

And so I see that it may be so here, at SI, also.

For I speak, but you will not hear me.

Therefore, I speak no more on this.

I will have peace instead, and go to God with all my concerns.


Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/25 15:03Profile









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


[Dear Forrest,

I hope you will stay to share what you make of the following. I'm not entirely sure how you will read it, but I hope it is some comfort.]


8-) - I've found that post I was looking for, from a thread [u]not[/u] focusing on the roles of men and women. But, [i]side[/i] questions arose which [i]finally[/i] drew the following explanatory responses from philologos.

[color=006699]'God-ordained priests are ordained by God. man-ordained priests are ordained by man. Man-ordained has nothing to do with male or female. I do not believe that men can ordain priests. Hope that makes things more clear for you.'[/color]

After further protestations of not understanding from the other poster, philologos wrote:

[color=006699]'Not only do I NOT agree with the ordination of women I don't agree with the ordination of men either. I accept one ordination which is available to 'all and only' those who are in Christ where there is neither male not female.'[/color]


Then the other poster asked two definite questions.


[color=006699]'This, of course, is the first time you have asked the question in this form. As with many of your questions it muddles up things which must be kept separate for a proper understanding of scripture.[/color]

[b]1. Do you support the leadership of women in the Body of Christ, in the Church?[/b]

[color=006699]'the body' of Christ is the Universal Church. 'a body' of Christ is a local entity. 'the body' of Christ is under His personal headship and what He chooses to do is not within my right to judge. In that 'Universal Body' I note that He has often used women to 'lead'. You don't need me to list them; history bears its own testimony. My opinion is of no consequence in this; it is His right as head of 'the body of Christ' and whatever He chooses to do with 'the body' which is under His jurisdiction is fine with me.[/color]

[b]2. Do you support Women Pastors & Ministers that shepherd a congregation?[/b]

[color=006699]I distinguish between leadership and authority, but I do not formally recognise the concept of 'a pastor or minister' who is responsible for 'shepherding' a congregation. I know you don't understand what I am saying here but you are asking me to describe 'apples' with questions like 'how many wings does it have?.

Let me share my experience. In the congregation to which I belong we would never consider sisters in roles of overall "authority" for that congregation. However we discover 'leadership' gifts in our sisters in many contexts, not least the meetings. Our meetings are open and without structure. We have a company of elders who are answerable to God for the particular 'house of God' in which He has made them stewards. They 'watch over' the gatherings of the saints and give account to God for our condition as a congregation. Sometimes a sister will pray and the prayer will capture the meeting which will follow; she has just exercised 'leadership' but not 'authority'; the 'elders' will 'follow' her 'lead' if they discern the Spirit of God in her prayer. Sometimes a sister will bring a prophecy or an interpreted tongue which will direct the course of the meeting; again the elders will 'follow' her 'lead' as appropriate.

The responsibility for 'pastoring' the flock of which I am part does not rest with one person; I am not convinced that in the 1st century it ever did. The elders have joint responsibility for the oversight of the church. So the concept of 'a pastor' in a local congregation is not the way I ever consider things. Some others of our congregation have shepherd hearts and shepherd gifts; the elders encourage such to enrich the church with those gifts. Some of them are sisters. However these are not 'roles' or 'positions' they are simply instinctive functions in our local body. If God has put such giftings within our midst we would be churlish to refuse them...'[/color] 8-) [b]???[/b]

Or does the above description sound like [i]another world[/i]?



EDIT:

I wasn't looking for these verses, but they came up in the praise thread and seem relevant here, possibly throwing a little light on what Paul was getting at in 1 Cor 14:34.

This is Galatians 5:16 - 18

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 2007/6/25 16:51
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Welcomed

Thank you sister. I well recall this and thought it had been 'lost' to the achieves somewhere. Had spent considerable time in the past searching for it.

Forrest, all I can say is that I would agree with Philologos wholeheartedly, 100 %. I am sorry that the manner of my approach would bring out so many things that have this so convoluted and you pouring your own thoughts into my own and then expect me to defend or deny them.

I was and am hearing you loud and clear and was assuredly ignoring the greater part of it, all in some attempt to just get at the root of the matter, to look at it and examine it against scripture, primarily the two verses in question. It is not the be all end all, at all. Nor is it most of the things you would have me thinking and never stated.

Your reactions though ...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/25 20:56Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Praise God

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/26 1:07Profile









 Re:

Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach????

My spit about this......
If the Holy Ghost teaches through a woman, let us just tell the Holy Ghost he cannot. I DONT THINK SO!!! Do not mess with the women. The women are going to be some of the greatest teachers and warriors in these end times.

 2007/6/26 1:26
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: A Woman Speaking Under Authority

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

Philologos said:
[color=006699]'God-ordained priests are ordained by God. man-ordained priests are ordained by man. Man-ordained has nothing to do with male or female. I do not believe that men can ordain priests. Hope that makes things more clear for you.'[/color]


Dorcas said:
After further protestations of not understanding from the other poster, philologos wrote:

[color=006699]'Not only do I NOT agree with the ordination of women I don't agree with the ordination of men either. I accept one ordination which is available to 'all and only' those who are in Christ where there is neither male not female.'[/color]

Dorcas said:
Then the other poster asked two definite questions.

Philologos said:
[color=006699]'This, of course, is the first time you have asked the question in this form. As with many of your questions it muddles up things which must be kept separate for a proper understanding of scripture.[/color]

Someone said:
[b]1. Do you support the leadership of women in the Body of Christ, in the Church?[/b]

Philologos said:
[color=006699]'the body' of Christ is the Universal Church. 'a body' of Christ is a local entity. 'the body' of Christ is under His personal headship and what He chooses to do is not within my right to judge. In that 'Universal Body' I note that He has often used women to 'lead'. You don't need me to list them; history bears its own testimony. My opinion is of no consequence in this; it is His right as head of 'the body of Christ' and whatever He chooses to do with 'the body' which is under His jurisdiction is fine with me.[/color]


Someone said:
[b]2. Do you support Women Pastors & Ministers that shepherd a congregation?[/b]


Philologos said:
[color=006699]I distinguish between leadership and authority, but I do not formally recognise the concept of 'a pastor or minister' who is responsible for 'shepherding' a congregation. I know you don't understand what I am saying here but you are asking me to describe 'apples' with questions like 'how many wings does it have?.

Let me share my experience. In the congregation to which I belong we would never consider sisters in roles of overall "authority" for that congregation. However we discover 'leadership' gifts in our sisters in many contexts, not least the meetings. Our meetings are open and without structure. We have a company of elders who are answerable to God for the particular 'house of God' in which He has made them stewards. They 'watch over' the gatherings of the saints and give account to God for our condition as a congregation. Sometimes a sister will pray and the prayer will capture the meeting which will follow; she has just exercised 'leadership' but not 'authority'; the 'elders' will 'follow' her 'lead' if they discern the Spirit of God in her prayer. Sometimes a sister will bring a prophecy or an interpreted tongue which will direct the course of the meeting; again the elders will 'follow' her 'lead' as appropriate.

The responsibility for 'pastoring' the flock of which I am part does not rest with one person; I am not convinced that in the 1st century it ever did. The elders have joint responsibility for the oversight of the church. So the concept of 'a pastor' in a local congregation is not the way I ever consider things. Some others of our congregation have shepherd hearts and shepherd gifts; the elders encourage such to enrich the church with those gifts. Some of them are sisters. However these are not 'roles' or 'positions' they are simply instinctive functions in our local body. If God has put such giftings within our midst we would be churlish to refuse them...'[/color] 8-) [b]???[/b]

Dorcas said:
Or does the above description sound like [i]another world[/i]?

EDIT:

I wasn't looking for these verses, but they came up in the praise thread and seem relevant here, possibly throwing a little light on what Paul was getting at in 1 Cor 14:34.

This is Galatians 5:16 - 18

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.



Sweet sister,

I already said I was a Son and Heir of the Promise, a Priest and a King.

So are you. And Mike. And Jeannette. And Diane. And Philip.

I am also Called by God, which means ordained, at least to me. I am to "Write", and get people to the place where I write. No more, no less.

I am not Called to even speak in a church. If I were, I have no doubt that God would put me in one where I would be heard, because I am under God's authority, and presumably someone would be able to tell I just didn't decide to re-arrange leadership issues that I have never cared about.

Dr. Ford is risking his soul on that Calling.

So am I.

His ordination of me may be mere dross in your eyes, and in mine, (because I laughed for three days at the idea), and in everyone else's eyes here on SI, but some people apparently need me to have a spiritual base, denoting the line of authority we have been discussing.

Oddly not a usurping, but an affirmation of what God has done.

He Called me to write.

He's Called Diane to speak.

He's Called Jeannette away from pastoring, after Calling her to it.

I already understood what Philologos is saying, or rather, did say, in another thread, long long ago.

And I agree with him.

And I thank you for finding Ron's tidy exposition of what I already knew, but apparently didn't say well enough.

Now that Philologos has explained it so well, we can drop the matter, right?

I didn't say it, you didn't say it, Jeannette didn't say it, Diane didn't say it, Philip didn't say it?

We don't need to discuss anymore the perplexity of women being called by God, because He's been doing it for ages.

Right, I know.

But you see, I always did know. and so did you.

I am too worn out by the struggle to get here to even enjoy all the harmony that will now result.

As I said, I lost my peace over this matter.

Oddly, it did not effect my tiny little website that people find, without me knowing how, because I don't know how God does what He does.

But the Holy Spirit, as usual, told me what to write about. And I did what I was told to do.

It's my Calling.

I am not surprised.

God enables me on my little website, but He does not necessarily enable me here...on SI...in the Forums, on the discussion boards, where people are playing speed scripture, to see who wins by beating up the most people with the best scriptures.

I'm sorry I can't respond with enthusiasm.

I am too burnt out to rejoice.


Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/26 2:16Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: A Woman Speaking Under Authority

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Thank you sister. I well recall this and thought it had been 'lost' to the achieves somewhere. Had spent considerable time in the past searching for it.

Forrest, all I can say is that I would agree with Philologos wholeheartedly, 100 %. I am sorry that the manner of my approach would bring out so many things that have this so convoluted and you pouring your own thoughts into my own and then expect me to defend or deny them.

I was and am hearing you loud and clear and was assuredly ignoring the greater part of it, all in some attempt to just get at the root of the matter, to look at it and examine it against scripture, primarily the two verses in question. It is not the be all end all, at all. Nor is it most of the things you would have me thinking and never stated.

Your reactions though ...




You were and am hearing me?


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/26 3:19Profile









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Dear Mike,

This is not a rhetorical [i][b]are you kidding?[/i][/b] I mean it! How is 'I would agree with Philologos wholeheartedly' compatible with what you [i]have actually written[/i] in this thread?

You are accepting, obviously, that women who are not speaking [i]within[/i] the 'gathering of saints' environment, are free under Christ to do His bidding, including taking leadership roles. Of course, many of these women are [u]un[/u]married.

So, how is it [i]possible[/i] for you to [u]endorse [b]both[/b][/u] (100%) what philologos wrote - in which sisters [u]do[/u] pray, prophesy, interpret - and more - and what John MacArthur wrote, (on which Diane (roadsign) commented on p24) from part of the series you posted for our attention.

She found this (below) in a later talk in the series (of which I had read only the first) and your absence of comment could [i]only[/i] be interpreted as [i]agreement[/i] (especially since you had posted the link). I know you are [i]busy[/i].... but...

John MacArthur [u]said[/u]:
EDIT: He seems to be answering the charge in " ... " end EDIT.

[color=663366]' "It is indecent for women to speak in the church."
It's not indecent for women to speak, you can speak all you want... unless you're usurping the role of authority, [b]unless you're taking leadership in the church. This is so clear. So, what are we saying then? When it comes to the meeting of the church together, women are not to preach or teach, [u]they are not to speak forth the Word of God and they are not to speak in ecstatic speech. Obviously, the sum of those things is to say that the church when it comes together is to be spoken to by men[/u]. That's just God's way.[/b]'[/color] :-o

Perhaps, when you compare the two, you will [i]see[/i] that an objective observation of the statements made by Ron Bailey and John MacArthur are not both compatible with the same scriptures. I trust I'm stating the obvious.

At the beginning of a previous post, I mentioned the incredulity which some of us have been containing, but as the mouth speaks of the abundance of the heart, it is this that you've been 'hearing' from us (all), actually.

So, brother, how do you square this with us...?


I won't hold my breath.... ;-)


OK. I can see there is something in here to do with the word 'lead', and how definitions of spiritual authority are understood and outworked...


 2007/6/26 7:23
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Not that

Quote:
God enables me on my little website, but He does not necessarily enable me here...on SI...in the Forums, on the discussion boards, where people are playing speed scripture, to see who wins by beating up the most people with the best scriptures.



We just do not like to be challenged do we? I am speaking in great sweeping generalities to over clarify the matter. What is telling and spelling of us is the matter of defending and it cuts across all kinds of lines. From the 'prophet' or more correctly in our day, "predictor", in his demonstration and pronouncement of [i]himself[/i] first and foremost even before the presumption of speaking in the Lords stead (Thus sayeth ...) to even these matters under discussion. We pour our [i]selves[/i] and our personal experiences into everything and want to make that the lense through how everything is decided.

It is appalling how easily we are offended for supposedly being "dead", cross carrying followers of Jesus. We go all to pieces when our assumptions, opinions or presumptions are put to the test. We are suspicious of motive despite whole histories of fellowship. Some of us are rather newish to this fellowship and already have everything all figured out and this [i]"I know what you are thinking[/i]", "[i]I know your 'type'[/i]" mentality creeps in and spells us with all kinds of notions and convulsions and stated ... atrocities. It's all so much rubbish.

This is no contest, no one-up-man-ship, no beating up anybody ... It's speculation and accusation and the classic 'head climbing' lobotomy. Let's be brutally honest here. I am ignoring you and you are ignoring me. I am going along one line and you another ... again ... generalities, I cannot anymore spell them out to one as to the other. If it doesn't pertain to you than what is the issue? It is puzzling and likely as was mentioned earlier, the fault of the [i]writer[/i] read 'Me' here as much as the hearer. Forgive me! The puzzling aspect is the [i]offense[/i]. Why?

If I have not struck some nerve here and that in itself is not telling by the reactions ...

To top it all off to have how many questions leveled at to be denied or 'defended' ... Goodness. It's a bit much to respond to in detail.

There is colossal failure here on my part not to better ascribe what some of these things mean by way of sloppy ... prose, if that is what it is. What I am so 'jacked up' about isn't in this mere men idea of hierarchy but trying to get to spiritual principles, foundations, Gods order and ideal, not mine, not the worlds, not any of this. What kills and depresses and speaks gutturally is that of restoration, of nobility and honor, of integrity and Christ-likeness, of power that is not usurped, nor asserted but pure and beautiful and awe inspiring and I am afraid that a great deal of this ... [i]demonstration[/i] is speaking directly against that no matter what the notions are being forwarded. There is a lot of talk about not disagreeing with man's role and the authority he is under and is 'given' in right understanding and a demonstration that denies it by all this defending, by 'what if scenarios, by pragmatic assumption and futuristic or [i]personal[/i] application and I am questioning it, that's all. Not with ill intent or all the other extrapolations ... There is a great sense of having not even gotten to these other things yet, I am still stuck back on what Paul meant when he was appealing to Genesis, the book of 'beginnings'. That it is largely ignored and passed on ... seems quite telling to me and I have beat into the ground like a bloody pulp but ...

I am not angry in the least, I just could but wish for a ... hearing? Is that it? I don't know, it's not really some grand effrontery to me at all. That I need to be pushed and prodded past the point where I am still attempting to draw spiritual understanding from ... yes, I am resiting it. It is the great difficulty here because we are all bringing different aspects to these things and it can become something of a jostling for position and voice and I am not opposed to that at all, I just cannot answer it all in such a bombardment.

Of course am very short to express at the moment and reluctant to even let this much out, surely it too will be more fodder for confusion and misunderstanding. But it is just that sisters, you do not know what kind of love and respect I have for you all, perhaps if you could but glean that much from all of this it would further explain and express why I would even bother subjecting myself to all this. If I didn't' truly care about getting to the spiritual roots here I would just leave off and go away.

Have some patience with the fool. ;-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/6/26 10:06Profile









 Re: I found it!

Somewhere earlier I said that I was looking for this Devotional by Oswald Chambers ... well, whoopee, I found it.

[b]July 30
The Teaching of Disillusionment

Jesus did not commit Himself to them . . . , for He knew what was in man
—John 2:24-25

Disillusionment means having no more misconceptions, false impressions, and false judgments in life; it means being free from these deceptions. However, though no longer deceived, our experience of disillusionment may actually leave us cynical and overly critical in our judgment of others. But the disillusionment that comes from God brings us to the point where we see people as they really are, yet without any cynicism or any stinging and bitter criticism. Many of the things in life that inflict the greatest injury, grief, or pain, stem from the fact that we suffer from illusions. We are not true to one another as facts, seeing each other as we really are; we are only true to our misconceived ideas of one another. According to our thinking, everything is either delightful and good, or it is evil, malicious, and cowardly.

Refusing to be disillusioned is the cause of much of the suffering of human life. And this is how that suffering happens— if we love someone, but do not love God, we demand total perfection and righteousness from that person, and when we do not get it we become cruel and vindictive; yet we are demanding of a human being something which he or she cannot possibly give. There is only one Being who can completely satisfy to the absolute depth of the hurting human heart, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord is so obviously uncompromising with regard to every human relationship because He knows that every relationship that is not based on faithfulness to Himself will end in disaster. Our Lord trusted no one, and never placed His faith in people, yet He was never suspicious or bitter. Our Lord’s confidence in God, and in what God’s grace could do for anyone, was so perfect that He never despaired, never giving up hope for any person. If our trust is placed in human beings, we will end up despairing of everyone. [/b]

Bless GOD!

 2007/6/26 13:02





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